Plane vs Plane Tactics (Matchups)

[oakranger]

I have to say, i never seen a topic that HiTech, or any one from HT HQ, respond so many times

[thorsim]

mostly, (with a few exceptions) i hear about roll rate and power/weight as the major concerns from the guys i've talked to, as there are a number of commonly used maneuvers to achieve a solution on a aircraft turning harder.

i've not heard of many tricks that increases a planes roll rate or one that give you more power that you don't have.

And here you burst out with willful ignorance again. Read this slowly and understand: An airplane's power-off 1G stall speed in a given configuration is important is *directly* proportional to both its sustained turn radius and most especially its best turn rate&radius at corner velocity in that configuration. It is possible for a plane with more power and/or a wing with more efficient lift/drag ratio to sustain a higher turn *rate* than the aircraft with the lower power off stall speed, but it will NOT be superior in instantaneous turn rate or radius, or sustained radius.

Accelerated stall speed is equal to the stall speed of an aircraft in a given configuration, multiplied by the square root of the G loading. An airplane that stalls at 100mph at 1G in a given configuration will stall at ~265mph at a nominal 7Gs "blackout" limit. An airplane that stalls at 127mph at 1G will enter an accelerated stall at those same 7Gs at approximately 336mph. The extra speed needed to achieve the same G-loading means increased turn radius and decreased turn rate. This is not even the slightest bit debatable.

And last time I checked, r/l pilots were *very* concerned with their plane's corner velocity.

[Masherbrum]

mostly, (with a few exceptions) i hear about roll rate and power/weight as the major concerns from the guys i've talked to, as there are a number of commonly used maneuvers to achieve a solution on a aircraft turning harder.

i've not heard of many tricks that increases a planes roll rate or one that give you more power that you don't have.

Wanna duel?   You could even bring along "your guys" to watch.   I'll test your gripes for HT.   I'm open until 2:30pm EST today.   

[CAP1]

Just because the Japanese fighters were much more maneuverable than the American fighters, does not mean maneuverability was not a concern. A Spitfire and a Fw190A8 are both turn worse than a Zero. Yet somehow it is easier to get guns on a Zero in a fight with one than the other...put an other way, you could bnz Zeros in a Jug, you could bnz them in a Hellcat or 38, I'm going to say the Hellcat or 38 was probably the better plane for the job because it had "plenty" speed advantage over the Zekes and more climb and maneuver to work with. Whereas over in the ETO, among other problems, at high alts the Germans were essentially disengaging from the 38s at will by diving, they couldn't do that against a Jug...

you mention "bnz'ing" the zeros. a lot do this.

but, as i'm sure you already know, a lot don't so much bnz em, but they do turn in the vertical, where they have a distinct advantage over the zeek.

[thorsim]

Wanna duel?   You could even bring along "your guys" to watch.   I'll test your gripes for HT.   I'm open until 2:30pm EST today.   

i would like to test with someone here.

but since i think this is an ego thing for you, and since and per the rules of dueling, i now have the choice of weapons i will be happy to meet you in WB P/D  
in the FW-190a8 full gas tanks dropped at = speed head to head merge at 20k.
no guns till after good merge is agreed and the tanks are dropped.

say 1:45 eastern us?

not that that would prove much other than how well you can take a beating.  although possibly the same relevance as your proposal in regards to this discussion.

[Masherbrum]

i would like to test with someone here.

but since i think this is an ego thing for you, and since and per the rules of dueling, i now have the choice of weapons i will be happy to meet you in WB P/D  
in the FW-190a8 full gas tanks dropped at = speed head to head merge at 20k.
no guns till after good merge is agreed and the tanks are dropped.

say 1:45 eastern us?

not that that would prove much other than how well you can take a beating.  although possibly the same relevance as your proposal in regards to this discussion.

A 20k duel?   I'll roll off of a 2k base.   If you need that much feel free to blow it all on an 18k egress.   I will not waste 10 minutes ending up on the deck, chasing you around.  I have no ego and you won't "give me a beating".  

I have to go pick my son up at 2:30pm.    1:45 is cutting it too close, sorry.   I'll be on tonight as well.    

Also, if we duel.   If at anytime either one of us is more than 2k apart, the "runner" loses the fight (I won't).   Even if I could manage a HO Shot on you after the cold merge, I won't take it.  

But I use the DFC Rules of Engagement, when it comes to Duels.   Again, feel free to dive from 20k, as long as the speeds are close on the Cold Merge pass.  

[thorsim]

my conditions or no duel, sorry but you are the one beating your chest here not me.

so what time do you want to meet me in the Warbirds P&D arena exactly?

BTW there are air-starts in that arena so you will die quickly over and over as often as you wish.
 

A 20k duel?   I'll roll off of a 2k base.   If you need that much feel free to blow it all on an 18k egress.   I will not waste 10 minutes ending up on the deck, chasing you around.  I have no ego and you won't "give me a beating".  

I have to go pick my son up at 2:30pm.    1:45 is cutting it too close, sorry.   I'll be on tonight as well.    

Also, if we duel.   If at anytime either one of us is more than 2k apart, the "runner" loses the fight (I won't).   Even if I could manage a HO Shot on you after the cold merge, I won't take it.  

But I use the DFC Rules of Engagement, when it comes to Duels.   Again, feel free to dive from 20k, as long as the speeds are close on the Cold Merge pass.  

[Bear76]

i would like to test with someone here.

but since i think this is an ego thing for you, and since and per the rules of dueling, i now have the choice of weapons i will be happy to meet you in WB P/D  
in the FW-190a8 full gas tanks dropped at = speed head to head merge at 20k.
no guns till after good merge is agreed and the tanks are dropped.

say 1:45 eastern us?

not that that would prove much other than how well you can take a beating.  although possibly the same relevance as your proposal in regards to this discussion.

WB = War Birds? People still play that? Amazing.

[Masherbrum]

my conditions or no duel, sorry but you are the one beating your chest here not me.

so what time do you want to meet me in the Warbirds P&D arena exactly?

 

Warbirds?   I've never played it and never will.   Since you're stuck at 20k in the Kiddie pool, come talk to me when you want good, clean fights in the DA with NO EGO.  

But, I WILL NOT chase you down to the deck.   I'd rather have that wasted time, brought forth into explaining things afterwards, or put towards additional duels.    

"Beating my chest"?   I haven't even raised a hand yet, let alone an arm.  

[Baumer]

Thorsim,
I know this was mentioned earlier in the thread but here is a comparison that you asked for;

F8U-2NE (F-8E) vs. F-104G

• First Flight-                        F8U-1 25 March 1955                                  F-104 4 March 1954.                  So they are contemporary single engine single seat fighters
• Empty Weight-                   F8U-2NE(F-8E) 17,541 lbs.                            F-104 14,000 lbs.                       So the F8U is heavier empty
• Loaded Weight-                  F8U-2NE(F-8E) 29,000 lbs.                            F-104 20,640 lbs.              So the F8U is 8,360 lbs heavier loaded or 40% heavier than the F-204
• Thrust (non afterburing)-     F8U-2NE(F-8E) 10,700 lbs.                            F-104 10,000 lbs.                         So the F8U has 700 lbs more thrust (7%)
• Length-                             F8U-2NE(F-8E) 54 feet 3 inches                     F-104 54 feet 8 inches.                So the F-104 is 5 inches longer
• Wingspan-                         F8U-2NE(F-8E) 35 feet 8 inches                     F-104 21 feet 9 inches.                 So the F8U is 13 feet 11 inches wider
• Wing Loading-                    F8U-2NE(F-8E) 77.3 pounds per square foot     F-104 105 ponds per square foot.    So the F8U has the lower wing loading

So in conclusion the two fighters are contemporary, the F8U is 40% heavier, has 7% more thrust, basically the same length and is significantly wider than the F-104.

Thorsim would you care to guess which plane was known as "The Last Gunfighter" and which was known as "The Missile with a man in it"?

Or just please answer your own question,

which one maneuvers better ?

My own opinion is that the bigger heavier plane will outmaneuver the smaller lighter plane. And btw the text I posted previously will back my position up.

<S> Baumer

[thorsim]

i've only been here a few months, you proposal is no less pointless than mine.

running around challenging people to duels over disagreements on message boards is very much "beating your chest."

Warbirds?   I've never played it and never will.   Since you're stuck at 20k in the Kiddie pool, come talk to me when you want good, clean fights in the DA with NO EGO.  

But, I WILL NOT chase you down to the deck.   I'd rather have that wasted time, brought forth into explaining things afterwards, or put towards additional duels.    

"Beating my chest"?   I haven't even raised a hand yet, let alone an arm.  

[Baumer]

sorry again

[thorsim]

i've only been here a few months, you proposal is no less pointless than mine.

running around challenging people to duels over disagreements on message boards is very much "beating your chest."

anyway you proposed a duel i laid out the conditions, am i to understand that you are now backing out?

Warbirds?   I've never played it and never will.   Since you're stuck at 20k in the Kiddie pool, come talk to me when you want good, clean fights in the DA with NO EGO.   

But, I WILL NOT chase you down to the deck.   I'd rather have that wasted time, brought forth into explaining things afterwards, or put towards additional duels.   

"Beating my chest"?   I haven't even raised a hand yet, let alone an arm.   

Warbirds?   I've never played it and never will.   Since you're stuck at 20k in the Kiddie pool, come talk to me when you want good, clean fights in the DA with NO EGO.  

But, I WILL NOT chase you down to the deck.   I'd rather have that wasted time, brought forth into explaining things afterwards, or put towards additional duels.    

"Beating my chest"?   I haven't even raised a hand yet, let alone an arm.  

[Ack-Ack]

not that that would prove much other than how well you can take a beating.  although possibly the same relevance as your proposal in regards to this discussion.

BBS messing up again.  FIGHT THE BBS LAG!


ack-ack

[Baumer]

Sorry