Rule Question Regarding Troop Transports and GV Lives

[oneway]

To any and all...

For discussion only regarding future rules and scenarios...I am assuming the Mods locked the RSKS forums to avoid destructive arguments...
This will be a Constructive Argument concerning future rule sets and scenarios...

Using the most recent scenario as an example...the rules for GV guys was: lives were used up when driving anything other than a troop transport...with exceptions for being killed by an aircraft or achieving a successful landing at an active base...

The rules stated that the troop transports DID NOT count as a life...

What is the general opinion on driving troop transports after all of your official life rides are used up?

In other words: If you got killed 4 times in a tank...is it then OK to drive a troop transport?

There is no correct answer to this question...only opinion...as the RSKS rule set was not explicit in this regard.

An argument for implicit finding can be made on both sides of the coin:


     You Can Drive Troop Transport with no lives left because it does not cost a life to use one in the first place...it's just like being a gunner...

     You Can Not Drive Troop Transport with no lives left because the rules suggest/request that 'when a player has no more lives he should volunteer to be a gunner...


Personally, I don't think its Kosher...but that is just a single man's opinion with no bearing.



What say you all on this?

 

Oneway

Code Junkies Only: CheckMultipleLives() Code: http://www.cadframers.com/ah/rs/images/rsks_code1.jpg

For the record here are the the number of sorties for all four frames where the drivers had exhausted all life rides, AND they were vehicle drivers driving a troop transport:

frame1 if (sortie.Ride.Style == RideStyle.Troop) cnt++; 9
frame2 if (sortie.Ride.Style == RideStyle.Troop) cnt++; 5
frame3 if (sortie.Ride.Style == RideStyle.Troop) cnt++; 19
frame4 if (sortie.Ride.Style == RideStyle.Troop) cnt++; 25

Total   if (sortie.Ride.Style == RideStyle.Troop) cnt++; 58

And to flesh out the discussion a bit further...here are the objects destroyed by these troop transport sorties. Its not trivial as two map room's were taken...

frame1  City Building
frame1  City Building
frame1  City Building
frame1  City Building
frame1  City Building
frame1  City Building
frame1  City Building
frame1  City Building
frame1  City Building
frame1  Strat Field Gun
frame1  City Building
frame1  City Building
frame1  Strat Field Gun
frame1  City Building
frame1  City Building
frame1  City Building
frame1  Field Gun
frame1  Town Building
frame1  Town Building
frame1  Field Gun
frame1  Field Gun
frame1  Town Building
frame1  Town Building
frame3  Town Building
frame3  Town Building
frame3  Town Building
frame4  Maproom
frame4  Maproom
frame4  Field Gun
frame4  Field Gun
frame4  Field Gun
frame4  Field Gun
frame4  Field Gun

BBS Code Generated by AcesHigh.Scenario.LogReader Class
A Scenario Planning, Management & Analysis program written by Oneway in C# .NET 3.5

[Krusty]

You know, I'm all for it as long as they're open game to any plane that sees them.

HOWEVER... the problem is late in the frame you have tons of folks with no rides anymore... All of a sudden you get 50+ spammers in troop transports!! If lives are unlimited, they should all be limited to M3s (no SDKs with rockets or anything like that, nothing that can withstand strafing runs).

On the other hand, you really don't want to have nobody left to oppose such late-frame swarms, either... I think a limit should be made for troop transports being used at any one given time (maybe only "X" per target may be up at any given time), but the limit after they are killed is nonexistent.


Have to keep the balance and consider the situation that changes over the lifespan of the frame. I think in general "no" they should not be limited by lives or anything, but I still think something in the rules should limit mass-spamm attempts that cannot be defended against.


EDIT: I also think it's a loophole that the SDK just happens to carry troops AND rockets... Something for CMs to consider in future setups

[oneway]

You know, I'm all for it as long as they're open game to any plane that sees them.

HOWEVER... the problem is late in the frame you have tons of folks with no rides anymore... All of a sudden you get 50+ spammers in troop transports!! If lives are unlimited, they should all be limited to M3s (no SDKs with rockets or anything like that, nothing that can withstand strafing runs).

On the other hand, you really don't want to have nobody left to oppose such late-frame swarms, either... I think a limit should be made for troop transports being used at any one given time (maybe only "X" per target may be up at any given time), but the limit after they are killed is nonexistent.


Have to keep the balance and consider the situation that changes over the lifespan of the frame. I think in general "no" they should not be limited by lives or anything, but I still think something in the rules should limit mass-spamm attempts that cannot be defended against.


EDIT: I also think it's a loophole that the SDK just happens to carry troops AND rockets... Something for CMs to consider in future setups

Excellent points!

Your 100% right about pointing out that if this is allowed...than anyone should be able to kill them...

If we look at the last scenario set up...the pilots and Tanks/AAA get thinned out towards the end...and we end up with a virtual swarm of troop guys...in essence the frame could devolve into a troop transport on troop transport dual....

My program has a switch you can flip to go either way...so ultimately its irrelevant to me...

What is relevant is the fallout when that switch is flipped...

Thanks for the reply...

 

Oneway

[Strip]

My personal belief is that only certain people will be allowed to drive troop carriers limiting any kind of swarm action.

If you allow them to be fair game how does the other side know whether a guy is on his fourth life or first?

SKD's rockets are useless to the average AH driver....

Strip

[kansas2]

It's very hard to judge distances with the rockets.  23 degrees shoot 975 yds and 45 degrees shoot 2200 yds. I can guess close enough for towns but to take a VH down is hit and miss. I would rather have a M3 then a SDK. The M3 is much faster and hauls double the vehicle supplies.

[Tilt]

Jeeps are nice.............. they are the closest "vehicle" we have to infantry.

I think the line can always be drawn "above" jeeps but in some game play designs you could include M3's, SDK's, M16's or even M8's (well maybe not). I would draw the line below Wirblewinds and Ostwinds.

If a standard 35mm flack was modelled like the bulk of those actuaslly used.......... ie deployable but on a fixed platform (not one that could fire on the move) then it could be added to the general melee provided the other gameplay balance mechanisms were in place.

Tanks are (should be) the real drivers of the WWII ground war gameplay with other stuff in supportive roles.

[Mato]

I may be over simplifying this but...
Couldn't you just make a rule in this case that M3s are not allowed to hit objects, only other vehicle/planes in a defensive manner (ie. M3 is under attack)?

[oneway]

I may be over simplifying this but...
Couldn't you just make a rule in this case that M3s are not allowed to hit objects, only other vehicle/planes in a defensive manner (ie. M3 is under attack)?

Its not the objects they destroy with their guns...its the objects they destroy with troops :Map Rooms..

An endless supply of troop transports towards the end of the frame doesn't seem to serve the intent of most Scenarios...

The simplest remedy would be to give an additional 2 lives of the troop transport variety to the normal allotment of GV lives..and transport deaths do not count as long as you have remaining tank lives...

That is very simply to program for the log reader...as it builds on the existing function logic sets I presently have in place...

Oneway

For the Record:

44 different drivers drove troop transports during the scenario
17 different drivers drove troop transports  with no remaining lives

It would be interesting to filter out all drivers who had lives left at the end of the frame(s), leaving the count of drivers who stopped driving altogether...

I would bet the split is 50/50, between those that do it and those that don't... 17/17

It would be also interesting to know how many never drove a troop transport until they lost all lives vs those that went both ways vs those that stopped altogether...

[Krusty]

Another way of limiting the troops might be to have troop carrying units that only can drive M3/SDKF. Have folks assigned to only them. Lives don't count, they can up as many as they want, but ONLY folks placed into that uniform during that frame.


Would mean as many troops as you can, but only for those specific players.

(Oh, and they will still be fair game for planes, mind you!)

[Tilt]

Its not the objects they destroy with their guns...its the objects they destroy with troops :Map Rooms..

The problem ends up being one of frame rates not game play (but then one problem leads to another!) 

Map rooms can be set to be taken at any threshold setting the scenario designer wants.

Actually the idea that bases are taken "under fire" (ie multiple sets of troops running in whilst being fired upon by defenders) is more "realistic" than the "total attrition" approach we have now (the requirement to "nearly" totally eliminate  defensive fire).

The problem is that 80 troops running in renders FR to unplayable levels which wrecks game play completely.

With the tools available now I think that using death count max would enable a time delay between "silly spawns" that resulted in the players being repeatedly captured attempting mass troop releases.

Obviously spawn points should still require a drive to a suitable release point......... this also adds a delay. The net work design of Spawns across the map in relation to the defensive/attack game play flow anticipated should be carefully considered.

Allowing both sides unlimited use of something like an M16 (or even M8's) stops M3 runs from being the trooping equivilent of a milk run to capture.

[K-KEN]

Lots of interesting comments on this issue. I would also liken it to being a gunner, or flying rescue (C-47) or running a rescue craft (PT/M3/Jeep) like in some scenarios. Limiting the number would be the best option - as assignment specific to a group or a set of players only. Maybe even COs XOs and GLs.... or a specific group - as a second ride, as has been done in past events.
I would be against someone upping one if their lives are used up. A gunner would/should be the only exception, IMO.