the not so studly Mustang

[aircat]

 well it SEEMS that they once again reduced the power in the stang... it was a long range plane that most often saw time as an escort at high alts. now it can barely climb. it took about 50% longer for me to get to 20k alt then it should. and it lost most of its flight characteristics. and the trim is better but its still 1/2 right rudder apon getting into the plane. climb rate is slower as is the climb speed.

apon reaching 20k I headed to a fight that was about 1k below and 6 k north west of my position... a 109 and another plane was going at it... I got there and the 109 leveled out and headed away ... even with my 1k alt advantige the 109 was losing me in level strait flight. he got back out to 7k away then truned towards me... I hear 3 light pings... not even heavy pings... I was then missing my entire tail section rudder elevator and all! did the leathality go up?

[tomldr]

My subjective opinion on the P-51 is that it is severely underpowered in this game.  I wish I had more technical facts, but this plane should be tearing up around the sky and right now acts like a heavy bomber..  Underpowered is the main problem.

[Sorrow[S=A]]

Yes the stang seems very unimpressive powerwise. I am thinking they want to avoid B&Z fighters controlling the map. The shockingly slow climb and speed acumulation tells me they tweaked it lower. Also missing is the 51's altitude changes, it was much less effective <13k than in it's "gold" zone 13-5?(Can't remember it's low alt superchargers's kickout) but in AH it seems consistent above 3-4k, no real turn radius change I can note in high alt.

------------------

[Hristo]

What is the power to weight ratio of P51 ? What is the power to weight ratio of 109 g10 ?

That should give you some clue. If only g10 had better aerodynamics  

[funked]

Exactly Hristo!

Praise the Lord that the Germans didn't find a decent airframe for that DB605!

The Mustang was a dog as far as climbrate.  Contemporary Spitfires, Messerschmitts could outclimb it at all levels, and the Fw 190 and La 5FN could do the same below 15000 ft or so.

For those of you scoring at home,

P-51D 1695hp at takeoff, 10,100 lbs normal loaded
5.96lb/hp

Me 109G-6 1800hp at take off, 6940 normal loaded.
3.86lb/hp

[Sorrow[S=A]]

Some more stats

1695 hp packard built RR merlin V-1650
empty 7,125 loaded 10,100
max speed
395 at 5k
416 at 10k
424 at 20k
437 at 25k
Cruise speed 275 mph
Initial Climb 3475 ft
altitude of 5k in 1.17 minutes
10k in 3.3 minutes
20k in 7.3 minutes.

As you can see the plane as modeled in aces high is pathetic. I don't expect to be able to out-turn a BF 109 but I can expect to more than cream it's 375 mph top speed in my dust in a long climb. As it is the P51 just isn't climbing fast enough at all, in comparison to the climb of the 109. And yes.. the stang won't out dogfight it, more reason I want the full capability of it's speed. I swear the plane in AH cruises around 190-220 mph level flight. This is incredibly bad for a p51. I don't think they even would think of engaging at that speed.

------------------
//Greycap from red two, 2 109's turning in behind you//
//nothing behind Greycap, your all clear. Whats that now 33? beers on me at st. Croix//
Any guesses who Greycap was? <G>

[chisel]

Where did you get the figure 375 max for 109G-10?

Numbers Ive seen are
344mph sealevel
428mph at 24,250

Climb to 20k 6min

Whine all you want but dont bash my ride in the process  

[leonid]

My ride is the La-5FN and I've come across a few of those 51s in AH.  My assessment of them is that they will pull away from me easily, given enough time.  It appears to zoom climb quite well.  If its sustained climb is bad, that makes sense, because laminar wings make terrible climbing devices.  Also, remember that the speeds you are reading are IAS, not TAS.

The 51 was a heavy plane that was designed to go fast and far.  It could zoom climb quite well, but it really wasn't an impressive accelerator, and if it has no room to dive will be caught dead to rights in a turn fight.

[chisel]

Got some figures. Hard to read gauge, are the ticks roughly 12/13 MPH? Quick test not super accurate. YMMV

Whats the formula for converting IAS to TAS? Cant remember.
-------------------------------------------
109g10

24,250ft

290 300 mph (WEP)
265 275 mph no wep

sealevel
370-375 (WEP)
340-350 no wep
-----------------------------
P51d

24,500ft

290-300 Wep
280-285 no wep

Sealevel

360 365 WEP
355 No wep


BTW P51 accelerates very slowly compared to 109 (hard to get that Freightliner moving   )

[Sorrow[S=A]]

-------------------------------------------
                    109g10

                    24,250ft

                    290 300 mph (WEP)
                    265 275 mph no wep

                    sealevel
                    370-375 (WEP)
                    340-350 no wep
                    -----------------------------

Hah, it was 375  
I pulled that off the top of my head as the fastest I have cruised the 109 and could remember. As for bashing the ride.. Pffft.
I use the 109 and La5 usually. P51 is too much of a pain. Unless I feel like 5 minute climbs and rollercoaster dives into a furball. Nothing gives a ruch like sniping with a mustang at 500 mph.

------------------
//Greycap from red two, 2 109's turning in behind you//
//nothing behind Greycap, your all clear. Whats that now 33? beers on me at st. Croix//
Any guesses who Greycap was? <G>

[hitech]

I assume everyone here understands that AH gauges display indicatated air speed and not true air speed?

HiTech

[aircat]

I,ve been doing somehunting around the net.... found the "Mustang sociaty" to which even Charles E. "Chuck" Yeager is a member of. BTW I was listening while HT told someone that at sea level that the 51 climbed at 3500 FPM well I will cut my own throat here (but only here) that the 51 had a ROC of 3,475 FPM
but when said and done it climbed to 5k in 1.17 minutes 10k in 3.3 min and 20k in 7.3 but enough of this I'll paste some links so that you all can go look for yourself!
 http://aeroweb.brooklyn.cuny.edu/aircraft/p51d.html
 http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/baugher_us/p051i.html
 http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/gustin_military/db/us/P51MUSTA.html

BTW Funked, its not fair compairing the empty wieght of a 109 (not even the same model as the one in AH) to the take off wieght of a 51 thats a big diff considering take off wieght is full fuel and ammo!

Im not going to bash others rides just get things strait on this ride.

[Sorrow[S=A]]

We understand that HiTech, it's just that we don't have any real way of figuring the actual FM performance than with the guage.
But you have to admit that when the p51 is getting slower in game eprformance than the 109 somethings not quite working right. I expect long climbs to altitude in the mustang, thats not the problem. The problem is when I get down on the deck and watch 109's and spit's keep up with or manage to overtake me in a mustang. Allowing for them getting some good speed trading alt for speed  they still shouldn't be able to get within 500 metres after a minute and a half chase. That and when I get pulled into a scrap the one advantage a P51 has is that if I get a 900 metre head start I should be able to run from any fight. As it is it's just not working.

------------------
//Greycap from red two, 2 109's turning in behind you//
//nothing behind Greycap, your all clear. Whats that now 33? beers on me at st. Croix//
Any guesses who Greycap was? <G>

[Hristo]

Except for 1 incident, I believe that 109 outclimbs p51 and p51 outruns 109 in AH.

Once I caught p51 in 5 minutes canyon chase. How ? He made gentle predictable turns, while I cut into his predicted path and let the geometry do the job. Kind of a large lead turn. When he came into dead end, I knew I will have him. He was still 1.5k away, but he had to climb that canyon wall. I started climbing gently, way before the dead end, while he traveled level, and started climbing steep at the last moment. Pitagora defeated him there. Not to mention he asked me on open channel if I was a warper and how could I accelerate so fast  

Same with dives. Of course p51 dives away from 109. If you don't follow directly, but choose course to meet him when he levels, you can catch up on him too. Thanks Fishu, for teaching me this  

Fuel load plays big part in the game. These Spits with 25% fuel can be a real pain in verticals and climb against 109. P51 can do it too.


Hristo,
I/JG 51
 
Jagdgeschwader 51 “Mölders”

[funked]

Aircat:

That weight is a correct takeoff weight for an Me 109G-6 with internal fuel and ammo.  Me 109G-10 should be very close.  However Pyro says the Aces High plane weighs 7400lb, so use that.  It's a far higher weight than I've seen published, but it's his game.    Me 109G-10 weighs about 5800lb empty FYI.

The power:weight ratio is still far better than the P-51D and my point stands.  Me 109G-10 should outclimb and outaccelerate the P-51D handily.

Sorrow:
Please read up on the aircraft in question!
The G-10 is a late model bird with performance well beyond the G-6 and earlier variants.

Read this:
 http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/air_power/ap14.htm

Note that the G-10 is powerful and fast.

Read this thread:
 http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum9/HTML/000005.html

Note that the Aces High G-10 uses the DB 605D.
Also note that both aircraft seem to be performing below spec.

I'm still fumbling around for some precise G-10 info, but performance should be similar to the Me 109K-4:

Maximum speed at 6,834 lb:
378 m.p.h. at sea level
452 m.p.h. at 19,685 ft.
435 m.p.h. at 24,610 ft.

Initial climb rate, 4,820 ft./min

Maximum climb rate (at 2,625 ft.) 4,880 ft./min.

Time to 16,400 ft., 3 min.
To 32,810 ft., 6.7 min.
To 39,370 ft., 10.2 min.

If I can get more specific info I will post it ASAP.

My point is that the Me 109G-10 is just as powerful as a P-51D but significantly lighter.  Top speed may be slower but not by much.  Climb and acceleration should be much better in the Me 109G-10.


[This message has been edited by funked (edited 10-15-1999).]

[This message has been edited by funked (edited 10-17-1999).]