P-51H

[vonKrimm]

Did the Pony-H fly escort missions for bombers?  If so, does that not count as a combat mission? 
I'm sure some WWII escort pilots would be rather irked if their missions were counted as something other than "combat" only because no enemy planes lifted to meet them.  Also, what about ground-attack mission?  Are those combat mission or not combat missions.  What about escort fighters that strafed targets of opportunity while RTBing.  Is that or is that not "combat"?

[Ack-Ack]

Did the Pony-H fly escort missions for bombers?  If so, does that not count as a combat mission? 
I'm sure some WWII escort pilots would be rather irked if their missions were counted as something other than "combat" only because no enemy planes lifted to meet them.  Also, what about ground-attack mission?  Are those combat mission or not combat missions.  What about escort fighters that strafed targets of opportunity while RTBing.  Is that or is that not "combat"?

Widewing posted the numbers of P-51Hs that were deployed to the Pacific in another thread. 

Iwo Jima... Four P-51H fighters were delivered on or around August 3, 1945 and were used to fly standing patrols around Iwo Jima to enable pilots to become familiar with them. No Japanese aircraft were encountered. A small detachment of Marine F7F-2Ns were deployed and began night ops the evening before the shooting stopped. No enemy aircraft were encountered in their one combat patrol. F8F-1s equipped two squadrons on carriers, but were still several days from joining Halsey's fleet when Japan surrendered. Given another week... Who knows?

Stateside, whole squadrons were operational with the F7F and F8F as early as June, 1945. Nonetheless, all of the above never fired a gun or dropped ordnance on an enemy during WWII. F7F-3Ns ruled the night sky over Korea for more than a year. F8Fs saw combat in Vietnam with the French Air Force. The P-51H was never deployed to Korea. F-82s did see combat in Korea, shooting down several Yak-9Ps.


My regards,

Widewing

ack-ack

[Chalenge]

George Noory is looking for you two... really. 

[gyrene81]

Chalenge...no offense bud but...you really missed the mark on this:

Dogfighting isnt how wars are won because you still need bombers and by 1945 the dogfights had moved to 30k and above as escorts ran into fighter defense. In Korea the fights went even higher and the P-38 could not match the P-51 at the higher altitudes. The P-38 could fly high and it could fight but it could not fight at high alt at high speed and the fact that the American brass failed to grasp this (and some people in AH still havent) cost a lot of lives in WWII.

Aside from all that... the P-38 was the primary long range fighter in the Pacific until America moved its attention from Europe to Japan (primarily) and the P-38 production was VERY important until then AND to retool to produce the 'K' would have taken P-38s out of production for too long a period. I believe all P-38 squadrons were refitted with P-51s once the Pacific campaign received primary focus.

First, air superiority is required to win a war and that is won by aerial combat which can occur at nearly any altitude...bombers don't establish air superiority, fighters do. As for the rest of your assertions on the P-38 vs the P-51...I have read the books, you're wrong.

[Ack-Ack]

George Noory is looking for you two... really. 

Why am I not surprised that this is the only response that you're capable of after being shown how utterly and completely clueless you are?  Must be the lack of oxygen at 35,000k or you're still suffering the lingering effects of being bitten by a red scorpion.


ack-ack

[Chalenge]

Chalenge...no offense bud but...you really missed the mark on this:First, air superiority is required to win a war and that is won by aerial combat which can occur at nearly any altitude...bombers don't establish air superiority, fighters do. As for the rest of your assertions on the P-38 vs the P-51...I have read the books, you're wrong.

For the very reasons I stated the P-38 was removed from service in Europe.

Capt Eric Brown - Chief Test Pilot - RAE Farnborough 1944-1949

(Speaking about the Typhoon and Tempest)
The Typhoon originally was a bit of a disaster. As a fighter it never made the grade; it was too heavy and its Sabre engine was very unreliable. And it had a problem that it had a weakness in the structure in one of the joints near the tail. What happened was the Sabre would cut out and restart again. When it cut suddenly and at speed you get a tremendous swing as the torque changed. This put the side strain on the rear fuselage which would eventually lead to a failure at the rear. Make no mistake it was a great ground attack aircraft this was its forte. And it could take a lot of damage and had tremendous firepower.

The P-47 was no good as a fighter at high altitude because it had a very low Mach number but it was a very good ground attack aircraft. The Americans had some shocks because when Doolittle became head of the United States Eighth Air Force in December 1943 he had had some disastrous raids with B-17s escorted by P-38 Lightnings and Thunderbolts. He came to Farnborough to ask for help as he was a long way from home. I was very involved and he gave us three aircraft: a LIghtning a Thunderbolt and a P-51 Mustang. You see the whole scenario in fighting had changed. Up to the beginning of 1943 it was all below 20000 feet. Suddenly the B-17s arrived and went up to 30000 feet. It was a different ball game because you were into compressibility problems and high Mach numbers. The enemy fighters were the 109 and the 190 and we had tested these even at that stage in the war because we had managed to get crashed aircraft repaired.

Now pay attention.

We found out that they could fight up to a Mach of 0.75 or three quarters the speed of sound. We checked the Lightning and it could not fly in combat faster than 0.68. So it was useless. We told Doolittle that all it was good for was photo-reconnaissance and had to be withdrawn from escort duties. And when we tried the Thunderbolt it could only manoeuvre up to 0.71. But thank God they had the Mustang and it could do 0.78. And the funny thing is the Americans had difficulty understanding this because the Lightning had the two top aces in the Far East.

Im not going to unsquelch ack just to see his latest ravings...

[Ack-Ack]

For the very reasons I stated the P-38 was removed from service in Europe.

Capt Eric Brown - Chief Test Pilot - RAE Farnborough 1944-1949

(Speaking about the Typhoon and Tempest)
The Typhoon originally was a bit of a disaster. As a fighter it never made the grade; it was too heavy and its Sabre engine was very unreliable. And it had a problem that it had a weakness in the structure in one of the joints near the tail. What happened was the Sabre would cut out and restart again. When it cut suddenly and at speed you get a tremendous swing as the torque changed. This put the side strain on the rear fuselage which would eventually lead to a failure at the rear. Make no mistake it was a great ground attack aircraft this was its forte. And it could take a lot of damage and had tremendous firepower.

The P-47 was no good as a fighter at high altitude because it had a very low Mach number but it was a very good ground attack aircraft. The Americans had some shocks because when Doolittle became head of the United States Eighth Air Force in December 1943 he had had some disastrous raids with B-17s escorted by P-38 Lightnings and Thunderbolts. He came to Farnborough to ask for help as he was a long way from home. I was very involved and he gave us three aircraft: a LIghtning a Thunderbolt and a P-51 Mustang. You see the whole scenario in fighting had changed. Up to the beginning of 1943 it was all below 20000 feet. Suddenly the B-17s arrived and went up to 30000 feet. It was a different ball game because you were into compressibility problems and high Mach numbers. The enemy fighters were the 109 and the 190 and we had tested these even at that stage in the war because we had managed to get crashed aircraft repaired.

Now pay attention.

We found out that they could fight up to a Mach of 0.75 or three quarters the speed of sound. We checked the Lightning and it could not fly in combat faster than 0.68. So it was useless. We told Doolittle that all it was good for was photo-reconnaissance and had to be withdrawn from escort duties. And when we tried the Thunderbolt it could only manoeuvre up to 0.71. But thank God they had the Mustang and it could do 0.78. And the funny thing is the Americans had difficulty understanding this because the Lightning had the two top aces in the Far East.

Im not going to unsquelch ack just to see his latest ravings...

(Image removed from quote.)

Unfortunately for you, you're still wrong as to the reasons why the P-38 was removed from escort fighter duties by the 8th AF.  Note that it was only the 8th AF that did this and it had more to do with the mentality of the 8th AF high command than anything else.

Nice try and next time try and throw the ball a little harder.  These fat pitches you're giving me just makes if easy to hit them out of the ball park.


ack-ack

[Masherbrum]

Unfortunately for you, you're still wrong as to the reasons why the P-38 was removed from escort fighter duties by the 8th AF.  Note that it was only the 8th AF that did this and it had more to do with the mentality of the 8th AF high command than anything else.

Nice try and next time try and throw the ball a little harder.  These fat pitches you're giving me just makes if easy to hit them out of the ball park.

ack-ack

Too true.   Next Chalenge will tell us that the P-38 wasn't the first US plane to land on the Japanese Mainland after V-J Day.   

[Guppy35]

For the very reasons I stated the P-38 was removed from service in Europe.

Capt Eric Brown - Chief Test Pilot - RAE Farnborough 1944-1949

(Speaking about the Typhoon and Tempest)
The Typhoon originally was a bit of a disaster. As a fighter it never made the grade; it was too heavy and its Sabre engine was very unreliable. And it had a problem that it had a weakness in the structure in one of the joints near the tail. What happened was the Sabre would cut out and restart again. When it cut suddenly and at speed you get a tremendous swing as the torque changed. This put the side strain on the rear fuselage which would eventually lead to a failure at the rear. Make no mistake it was a great ground attack aircraft this was its forte. And it could take a lot of damage and had tremendous firepower.

The P-47 was no good as a fighter at high altitude because it had a very low Mach number but it was a very good ground attack aircraft. The Americans had some shocks because when Doolittle became head of the United States Eighth Air Force in December 1943 he had had some disastrous raids with B-17s escorted by P-38 Lightnings and Thunderbolts. He came to Farnborough to ask for help as he was a long way from home. I was very involved and he gave us three aircraft: a LIghtning a Thunderbolt and a P-51 Mustang. You see the whole scenario in fighting had changed. Up to the beginning of 1943 it was all below 20000 feet. Suddenly the B-17s arrived and went up to 30000 feet. It was a different ball game because you were into compressibility problems and high Mach numbers. The enemy fighters were the 109 and the 190 and we had tested these even at that stage in the war because we had managed to get crashed aircraft repaired.

Now pay attention.

We found out that they could fight up to a Mach of 0.75 or three quarters the speed of sound. We checked the Lightning and it could not fly in combat faster than 0.68. So it was useless. We told Doolittle that all it was good for was photo-reconnaissance and had to be withdrawn from escort duties. And when we tried the Thunderbolt it could only manoeuvre up to 0.71. But thank God they had the Mustang and it could do 0.78. And the funny thing is the Americans had difficulty understanding this because the Lightning had the two top aces in the Far East.

Im not going to unsquelch ack just to see his latest ravings...

(Image removed from quote.)

I wouldn't even begin to know where to start in trying to educate you on this one.  Makes me wonder why they were borrowing 9th AF 38s to escort the bombers in the Fall of 44.   Of course the MTO 38 Groups were in it til the end over Germany as well, but whose counting.  And as Karaya mentions it was Clay Tice of the 49th FG and wingman who were the first American fighters to land in Japan.

Do keep in mind that it was the guys in the Jugs, 38s and the first B Pony drivers who essentially won the airwar over Germany prior to D-Day.  And if you really want to press the issue, it's probably fair to say that in terms of USAAF fighters in the ETO, it was the Jug that was the one that mattered most.  And I'm saying that as a P38 and P51 fan.

[Hajo]

Dan.....it seems we have to educate some spam can drivers 

Do more reading on the P38 and the P47.  The P38 served in the Med and europe until VE day.

The P47 did also.....then......take a look at the total kills by squadron and remember that most P51 squadrons flew Jugs

and /or P38s before they transitioned to the P51.

Both the 47 and 38 were very fine air to air combat aircraft as WELL as ground attack.  Both were very versatile.

I can suggest some books if need be.  And I know Dan would be able to suggest many many more.

[Masherbrum]

I wouldn't even begin to know where to start in trying to educate you on this one.  Makes me wonder why they were borrowing 9th AF 38s to escort the bombers in the Fall of 44.   Of course the MTO 38 Groups were in it til the end over Germany as well, but whose counting.  And as Karaya mentions it was Clay Tice of the 49th FG and wingman who were the first American fighters to land in Japan.

Do keep in mind that it was the guys in the Jugs, 38s and the first B Pony drivers who essentially won the airwar over Germany prior to D-Day.  And if you really want to press the issue, it's probably fair to say that in terms of USAAF fighters in the ETO, it was the Jug that was the one that mattered most.  And I'm saying that as a P38 and P51 fan.

Excellent post Dan.   

[Chalenge]

I wouldn't even begin to know where to start in trying to educate you on this one.  Makes me wonder why they were borrowing 9th AF 38s to escort the bombers in the Fall of 44.   Of course the MTO 38 Groups were in it til the end over Germany as well, but whose counting.  And as Karaya mentions it was Clay Tice of the 49th FG and wingman who were the first American fighters to land in Japan.

Do keep in mind that it was the guys in the Jugs, 38s and the first B Pony drivers who essentially won the airwar over Germany prior to D-Day.  And if you really want to press the issue, it's probably fair to say that in terms of USAAF fighters in the ETO, it was the Jug that was the one that mattered most.  And I'm saying that as a P38 and P51 fan.

Im saying that on the basis of looking toward Korea and the way aircraft were developing. Neither the Jug nor the Lightning were even considered that late and for the reasons I mentioned not simply because there were hundreds of Mustangs lying around. Their time (47s and 38s) was past.

The only P-38 in Korea was a can opener.

[Guppy35]

Im saying that on the basis of looking toward Korea and the way aircraft were developing. Neither the Jug nor the Lightning were even considered that late and for the reasons I mentioned not simply because there were hundreds of Mustangs lying around. Their time (47s and 38s) was past.

The only P-38 in Korea was a can opener.

Lets face it.  The time was past for the 51 as well. 

From purely an economic standpoint, the 51 was the better option postwar.  From a ground attack standpoint in Korea, the P47N would have been the better bird for ord and loiter time as well as pilot survival.  One hit in the coolant tank and the 51 was in trouble.  The 51D got the job because it was available in numbers.  The  casualty rate of Korean war 51s was horrific.

They  flew 62, 607 combat sorties in Korea and lost 341 to enemy action.  Consider the F80 flew 98,515 combat sorties and only lost 143 aircraft to enemy action.  474 Mustangs were lost to all causes in Korea. 

Also understand that P47s were requested for Korea, but logistically it was easier to get 51s as there were a lot of them awaiting scrapping in Japan that were pulled from storage for Korea. It was also easier to draw 51s from the Air National Guard units.  There were still Guard units operating 47s but there were no P47 spares in Japan but there were 51 spares so the decision was made to go with the 51.

[Raptor]

Im saying that on the basis of looking toward Korea and the way aircraft were developing. Neither the Jug nor the Lightning were even considered that late and for the reasons I mentioned not simply because there were hundreds of Mustangs lying around. Their time (47s and 38s) was past.

The only P-38 in Korea was a can opener.

In Korea the P-51 was used for ground attack missions, it did not escort bombers or engage with Migs.  In WW2 the P51 was not assigned to ground attack roles as frequently because it could not take the same amount of damage as a P38 or P47. The P47 used a radial engine that was reported to take a 37mm round and keep flying. The P38 had two engines to get the pilot home safely.

Now something you are not considering is economics. At the end of the war the US did not need nearly as many variants of aircraft for peace time roles. The P-38 cost nearly three times as much as a P51, the P47 cost around twice as much as a P51. The main reason the P51 remained after WW2 is it was the cheapest of the three. Now Korea comes around and they buy F-86 Sabres to be a competitive fighter, however they still have many P51s sitting around because they were not disposed of after WW2. Therefore they put them into service in a ground attack role. If the USAF had P47s or P38s readily available, they would have preferred to use them as ground attack aircraft in Korea.

[Wmaker]

The P-38 was designed to be a high altitude interceptor and at 28,000ft was faster than the P-51D

At least when talking about the normal 1625hp power setting for the P-38L this is incorrect according Mr.Dean's AHT.

HTC has the speeds more or less straight out of the AHT: