Changing the game to make it more "challenging"

[EDO43]

Yes, I do adjust my prop rpm and manifold pressure as needed (throttle setting) to achieve range and time on station.  And we do have propeller pitch control, it's called the RPM adjustment.  Mixture control is pretty simple, the settings are full rich, auto rich, auto lean and idle cutoff (for pressure carburetors).  Not many consequences of misadjustment other than you'll run outta fuel too early or your engine will quit cause the mixture's too lean.  

I like full immersion.  I loved Falcon 4.0 SP3 and 4.  Reason no online F16 sim?  I think it'd be awful hard to model the online aspects of BVR and IR missles and the countermeasures....let alone modern avionics and targeting systems....You'd need a huge AI support system for in-threatre ATO's and such.  Things like STT and TWS are just two modes in the look-down-shoot-down capability of the modern radar system that would be very hard to give to an airborne aircraft I would imagine.  I don't mind reading a manual...I'm not a quakeaholic.  I read Falcon SP3 and SP4 and had a great time....played with friends against AI and each other and had hours and hours of fun.  I loved the ramp start function of the jet, it taught me how to start an F16.  I like all that stuff.  I learned how to use the radar modes to their best and the envelope of the jet based on factual information taken from F16 specifications and flight characteristics.  It's the next best thing that I can access to actually getting in a real jet and flying it.

Oh and modern day complex, propeller driven aircraft still have a throttle, prop pitch control and mixture control....fuel injected or carbureted.  Turbo supercharger waste gates still run by oil pressure and engines can still be overboosted and damaged..nothings changed in that respect since WWII.  

[BnZs]

The P-47 had a lot of water onboard as well, for water injection. It had to cool down after 5 minutes, but it had plenty more stock in the tank, once the heat allowed it.

It didn't even HAVE to do that, I.E, you could abuse engines far outside published limitations with very little real chance of failure.

ALL sims I've ever encountered were fairly conservative about WEP times. What I like about AHII's approach is that they make the WEP automatically switch off, instead of doing some bogus engine damage thing that probably would *not* have happened if you left a P-51 in WEP 6 minutes instead of 5, etc.

[AWwrgwy]

Yes, I do adjust my prop rpm and manifold pressure as needed (throttle setting) to achieve range and time on station.  And we do have propeller pitch control, it's called the RPM adjustment.  Mixture control is pretty simple, the settings are full rich, auto rich, auto lean and idle cutoff (for pressure carburetors).  Not many consequences of misadjustment other than you'll run outta fuel too early or your engine will quit cause the mixture's too lean.  

I like full immersion.  I loved Falcon 4.0 SP3 and 4.  Reason no online F16 sim?  I think it'd be awful hard to model the online aspects of BVR and IR missles and the countermeasures....let alone modern avionics and targeting systems....You'd need a huge AI support system for in-threatre ATO's and such.  Things like STT and TWS are just two modes in the look-down-shoot-down capability of the modern radar system that would be very hard to give to an airborne aircraft I would imagine.  I don't mind reading a manual...I'm not a quakeaholic.  I read Falcon SP3 and SP4 and had a great time....played with friends against AI and each other and had hours and hours of fun.  I loved the ramp start function of the jet, it taught me how to start an F16.  I like all that stuff.  I learned how to use the radar modes to their best and the envelope of the jet based on factual information taken from F16 specifications and flight characteristics.  It's the next best thing that I can access to actually getting in a real jet and flying it.

Oh and modern day complex, propeller driven aircraft still have a throttle, prop pitch control and mixture control....fuel injected or carbureted.  Turbo supercharger waste gates still run by oil pressure and engines can still be overboosted and damaged..nothings changed in that respect since WWII.  

So just adding a mixture control would satisfy you?


Slightly out of context but possibly the same idea:

Short answere Oddar: In my opinion it becomes less realistic to implement what you ask.

To implement an even close to reality engine temp model is far more than complex then what you are asking for.

2nd Implementing what you are asking for realy adds only nusaince items, not game enancing items.Let alone any resemplance to realism.

Right now you still have the WEP / heating concept. Only difference beeing it shuts it off for you.

Loddar do you always control your fuel tanks manualy when you fly AH?
If the answere is no, what you are asking for is somthing almost identical to manual fuel control. It realy dosn't add much to the game.

HiTech

Do we need to turn on the gunsights too?  Arm the guns?  Turn on the gun heaters?


wrongway

[allaire]

Gun heaters?  Is that in the same category as headlight fluid, a box of grid squares, and chem light batteries.

[Jayhawk]

And buckle up, or you fall out of the plane the first time you're inverted. 

[gyrene81]

There might be 10 people currently active in AH that would enjoy anything more complicated than what currently exists...most of the uber pile-its would see their k/d ratio drop to negative numbers if an engine management system was put in place. Too bad too...the runstangs wouldn't be able to run so far at full WEP.

It didn't even HAVE to do that, I.E, you could abuse engines far outside published limitations with very little real chance of failure.

ALL sims I've ever encountered were fairly conservative about WEP times. What I like about AHII's approach is that they make the WEP automatically switch off, instead of doing some bogus engine damage thing that probably would *not* have happened if you left a P-51 in WEP 6 minutes instead of 5, etc.

That's a bit of a stretch BnZs...Luftwaffe planes were documented to need full engine overhaul/replacement with regular use of WEP, and they weren't the only ones. The rate of in flight failure wasn't high but it happened enough for warnings to be put in pilot training manuals. WEP would not autmatically shut off after so many minutes in any aircraft, the pilot had to watch his engine temp closely and pull the throttle back to the the normal operating range. The water/methanol injection tanks weren't that big...only enough to provide added power for up to an estimated total allowable time before the engine failure was calculated to occur.

[hitech]

Adding what you ask on the grounds of making it more challenging is a false argument. You seem to miss the fact that everyone plays by the same rules. The real challenge is not flying the airplane but rather out flying your opponent. So adding what you ask would not make it more challenging, because the goal of killing some one does not become any more difficult or easy because your opponent has to deal with all the same items. So in the end what you ask for detracts from the fun part (fighting) and puts more emphasis on plane knowledge and cockpit management.

2nd in many cases what you ask for becomes less realistic when it comes to cockpit management. With most computer setups  the easy of flying is far more difficult than flying the real thing in almost all regions of flight. So you are asking to make cockpit management much more difficult than flying the real thing.

3rd it would make it much more difficult for a new person to experience is first fight.

Finally as I have said before, you really are just asking to have to remember to push a few more keys on the keyboard. AH is about flying & fighting, not about having to remember a check list.

HiTech

[BnZs]

That's a bit of a stretch BnZs...Luftwaffe planes were documented to need full engine overhaul/replacement with regular use of WEP, and they weren't the only ones. The rate of in flight failure wasn't high but it happened enough for warnings to be put in pilot training manuals. WEP would not autmatically shut off after so many minutes in any aircraft, the pilot had to watch his engine temp closely and pull the throttle back to the the normal operating range. The water/methanol injection tanks weren't that big...only enough to provide added power for up to an estimated total allowable time before the engine failure was calculated to occur.

Depends on the specific engine I suppose Gyrene, but...there were cases where pilots panicked, forgot their power settings, and went back to England "balls-to-the-wall". Etc. I'm sure you've heard of them. I'm not saying we should essentially give pilots unlimited WEP times, OTOH, like I say, I think the automatic shutoff system conforming to published limits is a better compromise than failing the engine on some unrealistically short time scale if the cartoon pile-it forgets to shut off the WEP.

[FLTSGT]

I had a somewhat similar thought kind of along the same lines of making the game more realistic and challenging. The other day I had an idea come to me about maybe having random, but not too often, mechanical failures on the airplanes just like the pilots of the times had to deal with. Things like fuel line ruptures, engine oil leaks and other such problems. They wouldn't be predictable in the least and happen only every so often. I think, though, that the problem w/ that, similar to having micromanagement of the engines, is that I'm not sure it actually adds anything to the game. And if anything might get players so frustrated it'd do more harm than good. I agree w/ making the game more realistic. But can you imagine the first time a guy has a perfect gun solution on a target that he's worked hard to get and all of a sudden the engine starts leaking fuel or just shuts down altogether and all because of a random failure or poor management? It'd be really frustrating. I think the game tries to keep it as realistic as possible while maintaining somewhat ideal circumstances. I agree completely that it is a good idea, but only if it were that kind of simulator from the start but I think to throw it in now would make for very angry virtual pilots.

[BnZs]

I already have that. Sometimes the throttle axis on my joystick goes wonky and the manifold pressure starts bouncing up and down. Also, sometimes I "vanish without a trace". Which I guess simulates running into Bermuda triangle type phenomenon. I see no reason to pile additional difficulties on top of those.

I had a somewhat similar thought kind of along the same lines of making the game more realistic and challenging. The other day I had an idea come to me about maybe having random, but not too often, mechanical failures on the airplanes just like the pilots of the times had to deal with. Things like fuel line ruptures, engine oil leaks and other such problems. They wouldn't be predictable in the least and happen only every so often. I think, though, that the problem w/ that, similar to having micromanagement of the engines, is that I'm not sure it actually adds anything to the game. And if anything might get players so frustrated it'd do more harm than good. I agree w/ making the game more realistic. But can you imagine the first time a guy has a perfect gun solution on a target that he's worked hard to get and all of a sudden the engine starts leaking fuel or just shuts down altogether and all because of a random failure or poor management? It'd be really frustrating. I think the game tries to keep it as realistic as possible while maintaining somewhat ideal circumstances. I agree completely that it is a good idea, but only if it were that kind of simulator from the start but I think to throw it in now would make for very angry virtual pilots.

[gyrene81]

3rd it would make it much more difficult for a new person to experience is first fight.

Finally as I have said before, you really are just asking to have to remember to push a few more keys on the keyboard. AH is about flying & fighting, not about having to remember a check list.

HiTech

Ok...that's true. But I do like check lists...they can be fun. I used to do an hour check on my tank before (if I had time) and after a mission.

Any way we could have a chance to kick the tires and maybe throw a wrench at the plane in the hangar? 

[saantana]

I just don't see these as necessary. If your bored try a new plane, or customize your cockpit. http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,280151.0.html

[Knite]

And if anything might get players so frustrated it'd do more harm than good.

Failures and stuff have been discussed before and from memory, this was HT's basic gist of the response.
Random failures would bring the whine levels on the BBS to epic proportions.

Think of it this way... we ALREADY have complaints about how random it seems when people die or experience "rubber bullets", and that's without any randomness. Could you imagine if people experienced failures WITHOUT any assist from themselves or an enemy? Yikes.

[sluggish]

I would suggest (and have) that instead of different arenas for different time periods, there should be different arenas of difficulty.  I would add to the list of realisms no in cockpit dar and limited or no icons.

[gyrene81]

I would suggest (and have) that instead of different arenas for different time periods, there should be different arenas of difficulty.  I would add to the list of realisms no in cockpit dar and limited or no icons.

If you want a good preview of how well that would work out...look at the AvA arena.