Author Topic: Game is reaching new lows.  (Read 10042 times)

Offline Bronk

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Re: Game is reaching new lows.
« Reply #135 on: December 22, 2009, 08:36:15 PM »
I didn't mean to be condescending but I couldn't think of any other way to say it.
BnZ is E fighting just like anything else at one point or another.
You don't have to commit to effectively BnZ which is why it's so effective to use in a 1 vs many situation.
I should say that what I mean applies to many people in this thread demonizing an opposing style of flying as just flying in a lufbery or just one-pass-and-haul-assing. I love TnB in 1v1 engagements and BnZ'ing against large groups of enemies with the intention of surviving equally so it 'jerks my chain' I guess you would say to see either of these flying styles characterized as either 'just flying in circles' or 'just making a high speed pass and running', either of these characterizations I've seen several times througout the thread.

The  :salute was meant to take the edge off as I really did mean that with the most respect, but it obviously still looks pretty bad ;)


Not quite the same IMO.
BnZ is sitting on a perch, dropping down an going back up , more or less. With no regard to your opponents e state so long as you just maintain your E advantage. Very desirable in a multi target environment

E fighting is more elegant. You burn just enough of that E in order to get your target to burn his much quicker.

Just so you know, I don't think things are getting any worst. Always have had  timid players and probably always will.    

When you prefer to fly a slower ac like I do. Everything BnZs/runs. I think it's my job to entice/fool em into my fight. Not berate them into it on 200 or here. :neener:

« Last Edit: December 22, 2009, 08:47:03 PM by Bronk »
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Offline Motherland

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Re: Game is reaching new lows.
« Reply #136 on: December 22, 2009, 08:53:23 PM »
Not quite the same IMO.
BnZ is sitting on a perch, dropping down an going back up , more or less. With no regard to your opponents e state so long as you just maintain your E advantage.
The problem is--- that doesn't work. This is where the 'one pass haul bellybutton guy' comes from. The assumption that you only have to have to have E (more commonly thought among this crowd as just altitude) makes it very difficult to actually kill anything that's paying attention (i.e. do anything else other than pick).
To boom and zoom successfully you have to not only look for opportune targets and be able capitalize on them, but be able to coax / manipulate the enemy (s) into your envelope (ex the good old fashioned rope) without ever committing to them (catastrophic in a few vs many situation).
The art of BnZ is staying slow enough to do what needs to be done while staying fast enough so that you can remove yourself easily from the area/harms way when the time comes.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2009, 09:01:14 PM by Motherland »

Offline thorsim

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Re: Game is reaching new lows.
« Reply #137 on: December 22, 2009, 11:14:27 PM »
i can sort of understand you relative neophytes to MMOLVWWIIAC not knowing who i am having never flown WB or MAC-AW ...

but professing to be serious about this genere and not knowing who crutch is pretty sad ...

pathetic actually ...

you guys really ought to ask around before you come off all hard and stuff, cuz yer not.

So there's a book that teaches you to run away?  Seems like a lot of the guys here have already read it...

Don't know about a new low.  It's the same as it's always been, some guys will never fight straight up if they can help it and they can find all kind of ways to justify that.  Luckily there's enough good fights to make up for the griefing.



THOR C.O. II ~JG-27~ Afrika-AH
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Offline Guppy35

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Re: Game is reaching new lows.
« Reply #138 on: December 22, 2009, 11:17:53 PM »

The vets say they don't care about winning or losing, and all they want is a fun fight.

In that case, they are welcome to form a "squad of doom" or something, and always up from bases directly under attack from the enemy horde. I mean, upping from vulched bases, fighting against 5~10 to 1 odds, survivng the onslaught.. who cares if the K/D falls below 1.0 and you are shot down every 30 seconds? Would this not be the ultimate test of skill, wits, and luck? I mean it's got everything - evading enemy attack, neutralizing alt advantages, single-handedly killing multiple enemies, the vulchee breaking the vulch... wow! The ultimate adrenaline rush.. no boring alt grabbing, the fight begins the moment you spawn!

If they really like the "fun of combat", then they shouldn't have any problems enjoying a fight they are destined to lose, right?


LOL, well I can only speak for me, but that's generally how I do most of my dying.  If I can get the wheels up at a base and the nose down just a little, I'll fight that fight and spread 38 parts everywhere!

I don't claim to be a great stick by any means, and landing at all is rare, but I think I'm a vet after all these years.  Still working on killing multiple enemies before I die bit :)

Because egos are involved I don't think it will ever change.  The danger in reading your own press clippings in a game like this is you start to believe it matters and want to keep it that way.  Then there are those starting out who want to figure out how to get their own press clippings ie; attaboy messages etc.

In the end it still comes down to folks playing the game so the majority of players are having fun.  And since no one really dies and planes are free, that shouldn't be too hard to do.
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Offline Guppy35

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Re: Game is reaching new lows.
« Reply #139 on: December 22, 2009, 11:19:40 PM »
i can sort of understand you relative neophytes to MMOLVWWIIAC not knowing who i am having never flown WB or MAC-AW ...

but professing to be serious about this genere and not knowing who crutch is pretty sad ...

pathetic actually ...

you guys really ought to ask around before you come off all hard and stuff, cuz yer not.



OK I give.  Who is crutch.  I've been playing AW then AH since 96.  I don't feel pathetic :)
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Offline thorsim

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Re: Game is reaching new lows.
« Reply #140 on: December 22, 2009, 11:24:47 PM »
he wrote the book, literally ...

"check six"

google is your friend ...

err books now ...

missing WB is probably what left you uninformed, that is where the serious stuff started.

OK I give.  Who is crutch.  I've been playing AW then AH since 96.  I don't feel pathetic :)
THOR C.O. II ~JG-27~ Afrika-AH
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Quote from: any number of idiots here
blah blah Blah
Quote from: oldman
Good call.  Ignore the people who actually flew the real planes against each other.

Offline Guppy35

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Re: Game is reaching new lows.
« Reply #141 on: December 22, 2009, 11:32:12 PM »
he wrote the book, literally ...

"check six"

google is your friend ...

err books now ...

missing WB is probably what left you uninformed, that is where the serious stuff started.


LOL ok so he wrote a couple books on F/A18 stuff.  My interest has been WW2 aviation, and I really don't feel uninformed.  Not much interest in jets beyond Sabres and Phantoms.  I know a few guys who wrote books on their combat flying Spits with the RAF.  Does that count?  I spent time with an MTO P38, P39, P47 pilot, and he also flew Airwarrior.  He had lots of thoughts on cartoon flight sims too.  Maybe I'm more informed then you think I am?  Wanna see my home library? :)
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Offline thorsim

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Re: Game is reaching new lows.
« Reply #142 on: December 22, 2009, 11:47:20 PM »
OMFG !!! are you daring to talk about the real world in toontown ? ? ?

bringing up real pilots with real combat experience here, and books no less ? ? ?

why on earth would you do that ? ? ?
 
:rofl

hehe no seriously, you asked who he was so i told you, crutch is, well i doubt you will find a more respected and well liked member of this genre's community than crutch.  

LOL ok so he wrote a couple books on F/A18 stuff.  My interest has been WW2 aviation, and I really don't feel uninformed.  Not much interest in jets beyond Sabres and Phantoms.  I know a few guys who wrote books on their combat flying Spits with the RAF.  Does that count?  I spent time with an MTO P38, P39, P47 pilot, and he also flew Airwarrior.  He had lots of thoughts on cartoon flight sims too.  Maybe I'm more informed then you think I am?  Wanna see my home library? :)
THOR C.O. II ~JG-27~ Afrika-AH
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Quote from: any number of idiots here
blah blah Blah
Quote from: oldman
Good call.  Ignore the people who actually flew the real planes against each other.

Offline Delirium

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Re: Game is reaching new lows.
« Reply #143 on: December 23, 2009, 12:36:39 AM »
.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2009, 01:04:15 AM by Delirium »
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Offline Guppy35

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Re: Game is reaching new lows.
« Reply #144 on: December 23, 2009, 01:52:39 AM »
OMFG !!! are you daring to talk about the real world in toontown ? ? ?

bringing up real pilots with real combat experience here, and books no less ? ? ?

why on earth would you do that ? ? ?
 
:rofl

hehe no seriously, you asked who he was so i told you, crutch is, well i doubt you will find a more respected and well liked member of this genre's community than crutch.  


Wanna bet? :)

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Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: Game is reaching new lows.
« Reply #145 on: December 23, 2009, 02:05:56 AM »
Not quite the same IMO.
BnZ is sitting on a perch, dropping down an going back up , more or less. With no regard to your opponents e state so long as you just maintain your E advantage. Very desirable in a multi target environment

No, BnZ is not just sitting on a perch, dropping down and then going back up.  The form of BnZ we see most often in the MA is not correct, BnZ by its very nature is an aggressive maneuver designed to force your opponent to bleed his energy state so you can get an angle for a shot.  Most often we see players after their pass extend beyond 3000yards and keep going.  That's not how it's done.  In a true BnZ pass, you don't want to extend beyond 1,500yards after your pass, just far enough that you're safely out of guns range and can't pull enough nose up to get a shot as you reverse your zoom to make another attack.  This keeps the enemy from being able to regain any energy or some of the altitude lost in the break turn. 

When someone that actually knows what they're doing with BnZ attacks, it's a nice thing to see them in action alone against multiple targets.
E fighting is more elegant. You burn just enough of that E in order to get your target to burn his much quicker.

Quote
Just so you know, I don't think things are getting any worst. Always have had  timid players and probably always will.  

Just because someone uses Energy tactics like BnZ doesn't always mean the player is timid.  You can tell which ones are timid or not by how aggressive they prosecute their BnZ attacks. 

Quote
When you prefer to fly a slower ac like I do. Everything BnZs/runs. I think it's my job to entice/fool em into my fight. Not berate them into it on 200 or here. :neener:

Flying a lumbering twin engine bomber, there really isn't much I can out run so I've gotten some practice enticing Energy fighters into blowing their energy and equalizing the fight but I've also got a lot of practice using BnZ tactics alone against multiple targets and believe me, I'd rather be one making the attacks on 4 guys rather than the one dodging them.


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Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: Game is reaching new lows.
« Reply #146 on: December 23, 2009, 02:22:17 AM »
i can sort of understand you relative neophytes to MMOLVWWIIAC not knowing who i am having never flown WB or MAC-AW ...

but professing to be serious about this genere and not knowing who crutch is pretty sad ...

pathetic actually ...

you guys really ought to ask around before you come off all hard and stuff, cuz yer not.



I remember him as a trainer in WB, have his book but never really glanced at it too much honestly, Check Six, in my opinion, was more geared to new players or inexperienced players.  I highly recommend it to those that are just learning how to play and those looking to start learning ACM to they can move on to more advanced ACM books like Shaw's book. 

Knowing him still doesn't mean you have a grasp of ACM or can fight your way out of a wet paper bag with a big hole in it.

Some of us have also been around just as long, if not longer than you have.  Heck, some here are going on 17 years playing games like AW, WB, AH, and some others inbetween.  There are a few here that have been longer than that, so trying to use 'I've been playing this long....' doesn't really hold that much weight.


ack-ack
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Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: Game is reaching new lows.
« Reply #147 on: December 23, 2009, 02:27:12 AM »
Wanna bet? :)

(Image removed from quote.)

Should have included a screenshot of his P-47 that we have in game.


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Offline palef

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Re: Game is reaching new lows.
« Reply #148 on: December 23, 2009, 03:25:31 AM »
The only "lows" I've run into lately are the supposedly "superior" name pile-its waffling about in 262s cherry picking.

Had 3 months off. Had some brilliant fights in the last couple of days and some awesome furballs.
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Offline save

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Re: Game is reaching new lows.
« Reply #149 on: December 23, 2009, 04:23:46 AM »


So? Ever consider the fact that perhaps they don't need, or want, to do anything else?

The vets say they don't care about winning or losing, and all they want is a fun fight.

In that case, they are welcome to form a "squad of doom" or something, and always up from bases directly under attack from the enemy horde. I mean, upping from vulched bases, fighting against 5~10 to 1 odds, survivng the onslaught.. who cares if the K/D falls below 1.0 and you are shot down every 30 seconds? Would this not be the ultimate test of skill, wits, and luck? I mean it's got everything - evading enemy attack, neutralizing alt advantages, single-handedly killing multiple enemies, the vulchee breaking the vulch... wow! The ultimate adrenaline rush.. no boring alt grabbing, the fight begins the moment you spawn!

If they really like the "fun of combat", then they shouldn't have any problems enjoying a fight they are destined to lose, right?

...

Well, for some reason the vets (especially the vets) don't ever seem to show their face in a fight like this.

In the end, this is a competitive game, and the purpose is to win.

It's only fun when you have a reasonable chance of winning, and the vets saying, "I enjoy the pure fun of combat" is basically bullshi*.

What they are really saying is, "I enjoy the pure fun of combat (even with a few handicaps... I still have a very good chance of winning since I'm l33T, and whatever 'advantages' those bone-headed n00bs secure can be easily nuked. Besides, I can humiliate their existence by beating them with those handicaps, as long as they stick around long enough for me to slap them silly... except these damn fools won't let me kill them.. grrrrr)"



You don't win unless you shoot me down, and I don't lose until I'm shot down.

End of story.

(Besides, it's wierd ain't it? If you consider it a win when the enemy runs away, then what's the problem? You've won the fight! Yay! Why complain?)






Loose Deuce use a different approach against the attacking force - we take off from a field - close to our vulched field - We head to the field where the enemy are coming from, and vulch THEM going out,  heavy and hanging in their props - The enemies always appreciate that  :furious
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