Dueling vs MA fighting

[RufusLeaking]

humble wrote:
Ain't NO Dauntless gonna hang with a Zero in a turn fight (not a properly modelled Zero, at any rate). Only chance is a large, multi-plane scrap where the SBDs can make use of Thach Weave and tail gunners, and light up a few unarmored wing fuel tanks with snapshots. Position- and angles-wise, the Zero is going to walk over a Dauntless all day and twice on Sundays.

This debate could be resolved in the DA ...

[humble]

The SBD will handily out turn the A6M5 and has an advantage vs the lighter A6M2. The earlier zeke is somewhat stuck in the sense that its superior in the vertical but susceptible vs a good stick to being put in a position it can't power out of so relative pilot skill is a key. The A6M5 has the ability to control the fight and if flown to its relative strength (as an E fighter) will easily do so. The issue here is the tendency for a pilot in one of the rides I mentioned to view it as a "turn fighter" and to also underestimate the hitting power of the SBD...this is a bad combination.

[humble]

This debate could be resolved in the DA ...

I fly the SBD in the TA (and the MA) fairly often. It's a great teaching plane for certain subjects (much like the Boston/A20). I don't think any of my SBD clips play under the current viewer but I'll fly a few hops later this weekend.

[Masherbrum]

humble wrote:
Ain't NO Dauntless gonna hang with a Zero in a turn fight (not a properly modelled Zero, at any rate). Only chance is a large, multi-plane scrap where the SBDs can make use of Thach Weave and tail gunners, and light up a few unarmored wing fuel tanks with snapshots. Position- and angles-wise, the Zero is going to walk over a Dauntless all day and twice on Sundays.

Let me know.   I'll fly the SBD.   The Thatch Weave is null and void as if the duel is a 1 vs 1, a wingman tactic should NOT be used. 

[thorsim]

i can see, and have seen, a historic president for the dive bomber over the zero, it has advantages in G-Loading, firepower/armor, and also should be able to deploy flaps/breaks for a quick speed chop.  it should both be "faster" or "slower" in an extreme dive all of which can be exploited VS. the zero in a fight ...

dive bombers tend to do well turn-fighting in WB/AH compared to what history suggests actual results wise for some reason (i suspect it mostly has to do with underestimation and/or lack of understanding by their victims) ...

however a zero pilot aware where his opponents have some advantages should not have much to worry about in the game if the FMs represent history reasonably well ...

[Yeager]

I remember coming across a story where a NAVY ace pilot lobbied the government to procure a fighter version of the SBD because he was so impressed with its fighting capaibilities.  

[hlbly]

Agreed, partially. I say dueling is stupid because, if you "build your skill" only under such artificial, stilted conditions, you won't learn to be flexible enough to deal with the other situations in the arenas or in events.

There are any number of expert duelists who win most of these 1-on-1s at "twenty paces" but are helpless in any situation BUT a co-alt merge where their favorite trick always works for them. They either whine about their "unfair" disadvantage (which they can never reverse because all their fights start "fair") or they whine that they were outnumbered, or say the guy(s) who shot him down only won because of their initial advantage. Well, duh. Maybe the other guys are smarter about setting themselves up with alt or position before they ever spotted you, and had the engagement in the bag from the get go. Or maybe the whiner is dumb enough to attack a pack of planes, rather than waiting for help, or for a situation that he has a good chance to win.

None of these scenarios involve a co-alt, headon merge with no firing HO on first pass. Neither did real life, for the most part. I did read an interesting story of two guys who actually had a duel, with "seconds", during the Spanish Civil War (with the haughty Luftwaffe pilot coming off second best and lucky to get out of there only "wounded" but with his arse still attached); but these were rare.

There's more to winning a fight sometimes than rudder and stick input. Situational awareness can win you a fight before there's a fight... AND can get you out of it when you'd otherwise get yourself killed. So, IMO, SA is 10x more important than a few pet dueling moves.

Name them .

[Shuffler]

He seems to be using SA as a fight or flight..... more towards flight.


Most of the folks here are talking SA "in" a fight.

He's not understanding what dueling is about. He calls any dueling that is not co-alt / co-E training. Actually any type of flight in any arena at any alt can be considered training.

You fly MAs only and make contact..... you should be learning. Any fight, any mix of birds, any time, any alt... it is all training / experience.

The fact remains you can compress more of it into a couple of hours in the DA than you'll see all year in the MAs.

[mtnman]

dive bombers tend to do well turn-fighting in WB/AH compared to what history suggests actual results wise for some reason (i suspect it mostly has to do with underestimation and/or lack of understanding by their victims) ...

In the war, how common would it be to have an SBD launched specifically for use as a fighter?  In AH, it isn't that uncommon.  In the war, I'd think it would be more likely to have a heavy, mission-tied SBD, at a severe disadvantage to a zero sent there to kill him.  The zero is trying to kill the SBD, the SBD is trying to sink a ship.  That scenario would lean heavily to the success of the zero, wouldn't it?  The flightpath of the SBD would even be predictable.

Next, how many dive-bomber pilots were trained in fighter combat?  And trained in how to use their dive-bombers as fighters?  I honestly don'y know, but I suspect they weren't shown much in-depth training in that regard.  I'd suspect they were shown some things "just in case", but were told "your first priority is the boat, let the fighters take care of the zero's..." or something along those lines.

In AH, an "experienced" stick is rarely found using a dive-bomber as a dive-bomber, at least in my experience.  An experienced stick in a dive-bomber (in my experience anyway) is out for fun, using it as a fighter.  Conversely, someone using the dive-bomber as a dive-bomber is often an easy kill.

Primary use alone would skew the AH vs WWII statistics for those match-ups, I believe.

[humble]

SBD's were used on multiple occasions as carrier CAP early in the war due to losses suffered by the F4F's. The leading "SBD Ace" was John Leppla who was credited with 4 kills during the defense of the Lexington (along with 3 credited to his gunner for a total of 7). The Wasps two SBD squadrons logged 7 confirmed air to air kills before it's F4F fighters scored a single pelt with Lt. RL Howard scoring the Wasps 1st aerial victory over Tulagi (A6M2) on February 8th 1942. All told the 2 "bombing squadrons" of the lady lex combined for 21.5 air to air kills during the battle of the Coral Sea.
http://books.google.com/books?id=28oev-ECY8gC&pg=PA71&lpg=PA71&dq=WW2+SBD+V&source=bl&ots=k1q1WtsKDt&sig=60-XWI_ZfuWn_IssGCvvcW6SAP0&hl=en&ei=Y5hQS-myCcyUtgf6qZ26CQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CBwQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=&f=false  
 
*** at Edit ***

I adjusted the kill number for coral sea to remove the VB-16 scores which occurred later in 1944. However it should be noted that VB-16 flying of the "lady lex II" was credited with 10.5 kills

[thorsim]

i disagree, in the sense that if you are a fighter plane and get killed by a dive bomber being used as a fighter than you IMO you have made several mistakes which in my experience in other games are mostly due to overextending ones-self into the dive bombers area of advantage because the fighter pilot thought the kill would be easy and underestimated their opponent and his aircraft. 

put simply, IMO:

in the video game/s, if a fighter pilot lets a dive bomber kill them in a "dog fight" it is because they were being stupid.

"."

In the war, how common would it be to have an SBD launched specifically for use as a fighter?  In AH, it isn't that uncommon.  In the war, I'd think it would be more likely to have a heavy, mission-tied SBD, at a severe disadvantage to a zero sent there to kill him.  The zero is trying to kill the SBD, the SBD is trying to sink a ship.  That scenario would lean heavily to the success of the zero, wouldn't it?  The flightpath of the SBD would even be predictable.

Next, how many dive-bomber pilots were trained in fighter combat?  And trained in how to use their dive-bombers as fighters?  I honestly don'y know, but I suspect they weren't shown much in-depth training in that regard.  I'd suspect they were shown some things "just in case", but were told "your first priority is the boat, let the fighters take care of the zero's..." or something along those lines.

In AH, an "experienced" stick is rarely found using a dive-bomber as a dive-bomber, at least in my experience.  An experienced stick in a dive-bomber (in my experience anyway) is out for fun, using it as a fighter.  Conversely, someone using the dive-bomber as a dive-bomber is often an easy kill.

Primary use alone would skew the AH vs WWII statistics for those match-ups, I believe.

[Masherbrum]

i disagree, in the sense that if you are a fighter plane and get killed by a dive bomber being used as a fighter than you IMO you have made several mistakes which in my experience in other games are mostly due to overextending ones-self into the dive bombers area of advantage because the fighter pilot thought the kill would be easy and underestimated their opponent and his aircraft. 

put simply, IMO:

in the video game/s, if a fighter pilot lets a dive bomber kill them in a "dog fight" it is because they were being stupid.

"."

If the "fighter pilot" is as cocky as you appear to be, I'd have no problem in outwitting and using your blind faith against you, while in an "inferior craft".   But you are GROSSLY underestimating what the SBD is/was capable of.   Until you realize this, this thread will continue to 40+ pages. 

[Yeager]

Remember the Ki43 in Warbirds with 200 rounds ammunition?  I once landed a 5 kill sortie against F4Fs with 98 bullets still in the magazines 

Wish HTC would get around to the Ki43 for us in AH 

[thorsim]

well i would concede a couple of extreme disadvantaged exceptions, however  in general i will stand with my original statement ...

mind you i too was very surprised by the "A-20" in here but that does not happen anymore ...

If the "fighter pilot" is as cocky as you appear to be, I'd have no problem in outwitting and using your blind faith against you, while in an "inferior craft".   But you are GROSSLY underestimating what the SBD is/was capable of.   Until you realize this, this thread will continue to 40+ pages.  

[thorsim]

i had my longest streak ever in the ki44 in WB ...

i miss that plane in here, it has a big red Lightning Bolt painted on the side(clearly the reason for it's lethality)

Remember the Ki43 in Warbirds with 200 rounds ammunition?  I once landed a 5 kill sortie against F4Fs with 98 bullets still in the magazines 

Wish HTC would get around to the Ki43 for us in AH