Author Topic: Ya think the AAA we have is bad? Read this  (Read 445 times)

Offline Swoop

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Ya think the AAA we have is bad? Read this
« on: August 31, 2001, 07:50:00 AM »
Bollocks is it.

Excerpt from The Big Show by Pierre Clostermann.

We were at 14,000 feet and kept straight on over to the left, as if we had no intention of attacking. I took a close look at the field: the small crosses parked just where we expected them showed up on the bright green grass of early spring. I particularly noticed one, two, four, seven flak towers. Their shadows clearly projected on the perimeter track by the sun

'Look out Filmstar Leader, flak at 6 o'clock!'

Sure enough, 200 yards behind us five big black puffs from 88 mm. shells had appeared. OK, five more seconds and then I would attack. The objective was behind us and we were facing the sun. Fear caught me by the throat and stopped me breathing. Aerial combat always found me calm -
after the early stages - but flak was quite different.

'Drop your tanks, Filmstar'.

My stomach contracted and a wave of nausea swept over me - the advantage of a single-seater is that you can pass out with fear without anybody noticing.

'Quick. 180 port, go.'

This would bring us back facing the airfield, with the sun at our backs.

'Diving--full out, Filmstar!'

My nine Tempests were beautifully echeloned on my left although we were diving almost
vertically.

'Smell of flowers,' came Bay Adams voice mockingly in the earphones. Flak! Christ, what flak! The entire surface of the airfield seemed to light up with the flashes from 20mm and 37mm guns. There must have been at least 40 of them. A carpet of white puffs spread out below us and the black puffs of the 37's stood out in regular string of eight.

What flak! Physical fear is the most terrible thing a man can suffer - my heart leaped into my mouth, I was covered with sweat, with sticky, clammy sweat. My clenched toes swam in my boots.

We dived desperately into the  moke…explosions and tracer to left and right crossing over and under us….bangs around our wings and sinister dazzling flashes.

We were a mile from the perimeter, 150 feet from the ground. Men were running hither and thither.

'Lower for Christ's sake,' I yelled hysterically. The broad expanse of grass, carved by the gray runways, tilted up before my eyes and rushed towards me. We were doing over 450 mph. First a hangar … a bowser … then the Messerschmitts, perched clumsily on their narrow gear, about thirty of them, with men crouching under their wings. Too far to the left, unfortunately, outside my line of fire.

A group of a dozen Arados loomed up in my sight. I fired, I fired frantically, my thumb jammed on the button. My shells formed a ribbon of explosion worming its way between the Arados, climbing up the fuselage, hitting theengines … smoke …one of the planes exploded just as I was over it, and my Tempest was tossed up by the burning gust. A Tempest touched the ground and the fuselage
bounded up in a shower of fragments of smashed wings and tailplanes. More hangars in front of me. I fired a second burst-it exploded on the galvanized iron doors and the steel tanchions.

'Look out , Red 2' My No. 2 was coming straight for me, out of control, at a terrific speed. His hood had gone. At 470 mph 20 yards to my right, he went smack into a flak tower, cutting it in two beneath the platform.

The wooden frame flew into the air. A cluster of men hanging on to a gun collapsed into space. The Tempest crashed on the edge of the field, furrowing through a group of little houses, with a terrific flash of light; the engine had come adrift in a whirlwind of flames and fragments scattered in the sky.

It was all over … almost. One, two, three … the tracer bullets were pursuing me. I lowered my head and hunched myself behind my rear plating … twelve, thirteen, fourteen … I was going to cheat …a salvo of 37 burst so close that I got only the flash of the explosions without seeing the smoke…splinters rained down on my  uselage…nineteen, twenty! I pulled the stick back and climbed straight up into the sky. The flak kept on.

I glanced back towards Schwerin, just visible under my tailplane. A thousand feet below a Tempest was climbing in zig-zags, the tracer stubbornly pursuing him. Fires near the hangars, columns of greasy smoke, a fireworks display of exploding magnesium bombs. The lone Tempest caught me up, waggled his wings and formed up line abreast.

'Hallo, Filmstar aircraft, reform south of target, angels 10.'

'Hallo, Pierre, Red 3 here, You know, I think the rest have had it.'

Surely Bay couldn't be right! I scanned the 360 degrees of the horizon, and the terrific pyramid of flak bursts above Schwerin right up to the clouds, hanging in the still air. No one.

1304 hours. We had attacked at 1303 hours. The nightmare had lasted perhaps 35 seconds from the beginning of our dive, and we had lost eight aircraft out of ten….

Offline Ripsnort

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Ya think the AAA we have is bad? Read this
« Reply #1 on: August 31, 2001, 08:04:00 AM »
Sweet Jesus, I was somewhat sleepy this morning, not anymore!  8 of 10, my God!

Offline Swoop

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« Reply #2 on: August 31, 2001, 08:16:00 AM »
If a modified LBE ever goes this badly then we go back to training, k?   ;)

 

Offline Ripsnort

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« Reply #3 on: August 31, 2001, 08:21:00 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Swoop:
If a modified LBE ever goes this badly then we go back to training, k?    ;)

  (Image removed from quote.)

Absolutely!  :D

Offline GRUNHERZ

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« Reply #4 on: August 31, 2001, 08:24:00 AM »
The AH field ACK is a joke compared to that.

In this new version field ack a niki or spitfire (or other turn types) can make several full low alt slow circles inside field boundaries without getting shot for a long time, while any plane that passes by the acks at high speeds gets klled much faster.

And no this isnt some LW whine, you all, many P51, Typhoon and P47 drivers said they see the same thing day after day.

Something is really stupid and off in the new field acks. Plus the very idea that a single fighter is able to deack a field in 2 or 3 passes is simply rediculous. toejam with a little luck ive been able to deack the majority of a medium field in my Me109G6 using only the 13mm guns. All you have to do is fly right at the ack u wanna kill, because if you fly right at it it most likely WONT hit you, and then fire. One or two pings anywhere near the ACK graphic kills it and you then extend and go at it again.

The new field ack modeling is really poor and idiotic.

Offline Baddawg

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« Reply #5 on: August 31, 2001, 08:37:00 AM »
Well I for one never read what you posted
Swoop. Just because I am reading that book as we speak and I am nearing the end and I didnt wish to  be given a spoiler  :).

This is a great book,a page turnerand one that will be read over and over again by me.

 I found it in a used bookstore on the top shelf, with no dust cover and the books title had faded off the hardcovers spine.
 I opened it up and low and behold it  was  "The Big Show" by Pierre Closterman,yellowed pages and smelling faintly of something that has been stored  for a long time.

 The price? $3.00 Canadian,when I mentioned that the book was not exactly pristine the proprietor proceded to give me a free paperback copy of Adolf Gallands "The First And The Last"

Offline Naso

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« Reply #6 on: August 31, 2001, 08:49:00 AM »
8 of 10 Tempest lost???  :eek:

that's 560 perk points lost !!!  :eek:

That ack must be overmodeled !!!

 ;)

Offline Ghosth

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« Reply #7 on: August 31, 2001, 11:26:00 AM »
Well there certainly seems to be a problem with P51's and ack. While the La7 will easily deack a small or med field without taking a ping. Get close to ack in a pony and it's a quick trip to the tower.

P47's, F4u's I've seen no problems killing acks if you come in with alt and speed.

Offline AKDejaVu

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« Reply #8 on: August 31, 2001, 11:35:00 AM »
I think about stories like this whenever people complain that AH flak makes it too difficult to loiter over a target.

Thanks for posting it.

AKDejaVu

Offline Fatty

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« Reply #9 on: August 31, 2001, 12:32:00 PM »
I want beta ack back!

Offline SFRT - Frenchy

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« Reply #10 on: August 31, 2001, 02:01:00 PM »
Put 40 acks on a field, make 10 tempests buzz it at 50feet/450IAS, mix it a couple of newbies who will crash on the ground...
... I think you may have the same result.
Dat jugs bro.

Terror flieger since 1941.
------------------------

Offline Hangtime

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« Reply #11 on: August 31, 2001, 03:47:00 PM »
Bah... I can de-ack a field in one pass with my pony.

... after the first ack gets my engine, the second my flaps, the third my tail, I bail...

..then walk up to the remaining 6 or so acks and waste 'em with my .45

Piece of cake.
The price of Freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle, anywhere, any time and with utter recklessness...

...at home, or abroad.

Offline Buzzbait

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« Reply #12 on: August 31, 2001, 04:28:00 PM »
S!

The accounts I have read said attacking a field at low level was possible, but only one pass, and only if the enemy didn`t spot you prior to the attack.

No reflection on Clostermann`s courage, but the reason he survived was probably because he was the Squadron Leader and was first across the field.  Tail end Charly usually was the one to get it.

Most of the time, in serious airfield attacks, Medium Bombers were used from an altitude of around 10,000 ft, or sometimes Dive bombers or Fighter Bombers against lightly defended targets.

The Germans used these techniques in the Campaigns against the French and British in 1940, as well as against the Soviets in `41. (although in the surprise attack on the Soviets, they were able to use fighters due to the lack of preparation by the Soviets) They also did the same versus the British in Greece and Malta in `41/`42.  

The British and U.S. also used medium bombers to attack Luftwaffe fields in France during the big buildup to D-Day from Jan. `44 to June `44.

The focus of those attacks were the parked aircraft, hangers and fuel storage.  Gun emplacements were too small to be effectively targeted, and usually couldn`t be destroyed except by a direct hit or one which landed adjacent.  The bomb might kill the gunners, but the weapon itself wouldn`t be destroyed by blast or bomb splinters.  New crews could be found to re-man them.

Actually diving directly at Flak positions (unless these were small caliber weapons) to strafe them was tantamount to suicide.

The reason we can get away with it in this Game is that the Strat system is geared around field capture, specifically field capture from the air.  (Early versions of AH didn`t have M3`s so you had to do it with a C-47)  If fighters couldn`t destroy flak by strafing, it would be much more difficult to take a field.

There is nothing wrong with this, but it isn`t historically very realistic.

It would be nice to see this changed, so that the only way the Flak defences can be taken out, other than by massed suicide attacks, is by Ground Vehicles.

The guys in the Ground attack Squadrons of the 9th USAAF, and the British 2nd TAF didn`t get nearly the glory of the Fighter pilots who flew escort or top cover missions, and they had much shorter life spans.  The number of Allied Fighter Bombers shot down by German Flak continued to be very high right up until the surrender of Germany May 8th 1945.

As Clostermann said, Flak really scared him.  And he was right to fear it.

The courage of the Tiffie and Jug pilots who did ground attack day after day can`t be overstated.  They saw their buddies going down around them, but they persisted in doing their job.

Offline Kratzer

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« Reply #13 on: August 31, 2001, 04:42:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Naso:
8 of 10 Tempest lost???   :eek:

that's 560 perk points lost !!!   :eek:

That ack must be overmodeled !!!

  ;)

That's 8 dead fliers, all of whom probably died as scared as Closterman described... if not more so... sobering thought, isn't it?

 :(

Offline hazed-

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« Reply #14 on: August 31, 2001, 07:46:00 PM »
what a story!.

makes you think doesnt it. <S> swoop