"Dueling" help...

[humble]

I can beat 60% of the player base in an SBD vs any plane of their choice. This is a simple statement of reality that there is an elite group of guys that are truly exceptional in a dueling environment...and I'm not one of them. In the end dueling is all about ACM. But as Grizz and others have pointed out it's often about very subtle management of relative E state and lift vector. Since my action/reaction stimulates similar if not identical responses across a range of these "uber duelers" it's a fairly simple deduction that I am violating a few fundamentals ingrained in these guys/gals. Specific to what your saying realize that at my current level vs this level of competition they are reacting to my mistake. So if this is a case of the "no lose" merge then you've got something few do. It would all depend on who you beat and who you lost to. To me this is simple...to go from good to better then good in anything requires applied knowledge. Since my overall applied knowledge is reasonably strong I have 2 points to consider. Weaknesses in general understanding of cause and effect that I mask via other strengths and "duel" specific understanding that may be at odds with what is "smart" in other less defined circumstances. Bottom line is I can not "fly to neutral" vs an uber dueler. Best I did was one vs Grizz where he commented he was in a bad way if he'd missed his shot (he didn't) and one where I maneged to auger cactus of my 6...other then that I got soundly beaten with my standard stuff (which I figured going in). Normally I'd just fly a bit more duels and get my stuff tighter...which will help me a bit...but in the end if i'm gonna do it I'll do it right...to the best of my ability. So I'll spend 6 months pondering, flying koth and seeing just how decent I can get...

[JunkyII]

Not an expert, but my attitude towards dueling is that it's far more a psychological/strategic battle than an ACM one so long as no pilot is too far above the other in ACM understanding.

More important is predicting your opponent's move, or perhaps baiting them into a certain move that you can exploit. From my experience in the last dueling bracket, the advantages I generated in my duels were created mostly by flying a "no-lose" merge which brought me back to even with my opponent in the worst case and gave me a big advantage in the best case.

After that, it's just a matter of pressing home the advantage using "standard" ACM and good gunnery.

Edit: proper ACM understanding is a prerequisite to flying this way. The ACM understanding tells you what moves counter what others, what moves to fly to exploit a given situation, etc. Without the understanding, you can generate exploitable moves by your opponent but completely fail to exploit them.

See I disagree that you need to know what the moves are.........I like to fly,well for the fight, but also with this in the back of my head(a semi-quote from WMLute) "Its not about fancy ACM moves, its about knowing when to turn and which way to turn" which wins the fight

[FLS]

See I disagree that you need to know what the moves are.........I like to fly,well for the fight, but also with this in the back of my head(a semi-quote from WMLute) "Its not about fancy ACM moves, its about knowing when to turn and which way to turn" which wins the fight

Let me paraphrase that. It's not about fancy ACM moves, it's about basic ACM moves. 

[boomerlu]

Let me paraphrase that. It's not about fancy ACM moves, it's about basic ACM moves.  

I'm not saying you need to know the most uber crazy strung together ACM move.

When I actually apply ACM it's almost astoundingly simple. Nose down to increase turn rate, nose up to decrease turn radius, lag to reduce angle off, lead to get guns. Most of the fancier flying (rolling scissors, barrel rolls, horizontal scissors) and their counters are extensions of these simple concepts.

[FLS]

 I wasn't commenting on your post Boomerlu. Although I do consider rolling and flat scissors to be a case of when to turn, which way, and how much, I just wanted to point out that knowing "when to turn and which way" is basic ACM. I'm sure Junky knows that too. I just wasn't sure it was obvious to the newer people reading this thread.

[Sonicblu]

Hey snap srry I had to leave the other night just as you got on.

I would be happy to duel you anytime. I think I,m one of the guys you can beat most of the time though.

For me these fights happen so fast I have a hard time thinking through it then im dead. The more things i get down without thinking the better Ill think ill be.

[humble]

I'm always up to flying, if I can help great...if you can whup my !!!! and offer some insight even better. Trying to get on for an hour or so every evening for a few weeks. Then will start back in on KOTH etc. Looking at it as the next "challenge" so to speak. Spent some time with Bigrat last night and Bat and I are going to hook up with him taking the gloves of a bit. Got to fly a few with "the gang" in the DA last night again. Bigrat had a few excellent obervations that can't do anything but help. Hopefully I'll get a chance to hook up with a few of the other trainers and a few of the "uber duelers" over the next couple of months. It's funny but vs about 85% of the population my read and react does just that...you sit and wait that given number of milliseconds and "see" an opening. The next 12% or so you don't see a major mistake but you see an opportunity you can develop. Now that last 3% or so I just chug along and that "read" doesn't happen...I go from looking for "an opening" to "Danger Will Robinson"...to..."Scotty I need warp power in 2 seconds or were all dead"...to..."The secretary of defense regrets to inform you..." Accordingly a major programming upgrade is requirred.

[BaldEagl]

Well I don't have the luxury of not being able to beat only the top players.  I do pretty well in the MA's winning most one-on-one's but for some reason I really stink at dueling.  I did some flying with Sol, Lute and Karaya a few weeks ago in the DA and Lute picked up on some things right away that helped me out but I haven't had a chance to get back and do more work since then which I desperately need.

I did go to the DA last night to get some work in with the P-47N (my first assigned plane in the tournament) over furball lake.  I was suprised to survive a me on three (Spit, N1k, P-47M) on the deck near one of the enemy bases but I don't think that will help me in a one-on-one duel.

Anyway, I'd be glad to spar with you but you'd probably beat me up so I'm not sure how much help it would be to you.  I know it would help me.

[humble]

Love to BaldEagl, certainly glad to pass on what I do know....it's what i don't know I'm worried about

Just run a .f snaphook any time your on and shoot me a PM if i'm up....

[boomerlu]

I wasn't commenting on your post Boomerlu. Although I do consider rolling and flat scissors to be a case of when to turn, which way, and how much, I just wanted to point out that knowing "when to turn and which way" is basic ACM. I'm sure Junky knows that too. I just wasn't sure it was obvious to the newer people reading this thread.

Certainly, and I was also more commenting on Junky's post.

And even though basic ACM is "simple", it's also rather complicated at the same time. For one, you have to know how to use turn rate vs turn radius. You also have to know what angle-off is. And that's just to understand what my original statement means.

The crux of what I'm saying is... in order to read and react, you must know what you are reading and you must know the proper reaction. ACM knowledge tells you these things.

[WMLute]

I find in a duel it is not so much knowing WHAT to do but WHEN to do it.

Timing is key.

[Big Rat]

It's funny but vs about 85% of the population my read and react does just that...you sit and wait that given number of milliseconds and "see" an opening. The next 12% or so you don't see a major mistake but you see an opportunity you can develop. Now that last 3% or so I just chug along and that "read" doesn't happen.

I don't get a chance to see much of the top duelers in the TA where I spend most of my time.  I do see quite a bit of the 12% however trying to be that 3% guy, some will make it some won't.  All of that 12% can fly like that 3% every once in a while, but only that 3% can do it consistently.  How do you get from that 12% to 3%?  Most of the ACM I learned in this game, came from fighting better sticks.  If you consistently fight better sticks you will improve, fighting those equal or lesser then you will not improve your dueling (maybe your gunnery but not dueling).  I learned the hog from getting beat on by Optiker for about a year, after about a year of beatings I was starting to win.  I was learning from what was then a superior dueler to me. 

 
BigRat     

[Redd]

Hand eye co-ordination and timing plays a role, like it does in most games and most sports . Duelling is also a particular "skill" or part of the game that you have to work on to become proficient. Having seen people like Lev and Drex up close I wouldnt be surprised to find they had gifted hand eye co-ordination.

I play a little golf and you see a lot of people who bust their guts to improve and never get past an 18 handicap, you also see people who never practice and hold down a low single figure hcp. The top duellers would be the equivalent of those low handicappers.

So "knowing" the moves isn't really enough , you have to have the timing and hand-eye to pull them off.