Author Topic: It was Lowell and Galland...  (Read 5094 times)

Offline Westy

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It was Lowell and Galland...
« on: December 20, 2000, 02:16:00 PM »
 I put the feelers out on usenet and struck pay dirt. When I get the story I'll post it here.

"Yep.  Big John Lowell and Adolf Galland.  The kicker is how Lowell found out it was Galland in the 190.
 At a big Fighter meet somewhere in the 70's (I think), Lowell found out that Galland had flown 190's in the area that the fight had taken place.  He then asked Galland if any of his people had told him of a dogfight with a 38 . . blah blah blah. . .
  While Lowell is describing the dogfight, everyone else is looking at Galland, who is getting whiter and whiter, and finally explodes with "You sonofasqueak!! You damn nearly killed me there!"
 I have this episode in one of my books at home.  I'll get the reference for you tomorrow."

Offline RAM

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It was Lowell and Galland...
« Reply #1 on: December 20, 2000, 02:49:00 PM »
Ok, westy, I dont discuss that.

I simply wonder why was galland trying to turnfight a P38 on the deck. The answer is clear...

a 190 doesnt turn quite like a 109F4  

Galland was a grounded pilot...Roland Garros in WWI was shot down in 1915 as a big ace...when he flew again in 1918 he was killed in less than a month.

Simply put, 1941 tactics didnt quite work in 1945.

Offline Westy

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It was Lowell and Galland...
« Reply #2 on: December 20, 2000, 02:52:00 PM »
"Simply put, 1941 tactics didnt quite work in 1945."

 Oh? Er, unless you're in a jet of course huh?

 Don't short change Galland that way. He was an outstanding fighter pilot and he was not stuck in 1941 with 1941 tactics. I'm only posting the story now for the reading. Not to prove any point.  I also figured the other topic was going off on a tangent with this sub-discussion in it.

 - Westy

Offline RAM

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It was Lowell and Galland...
« Reply #3 on: December 20, 2000, 03:13:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by Westy:
"Simply put, 1941 tactics didnt quite work in 1945."

 Oh? Er, unless you're in a jet of course huh?

 Don't short change Galland that way. He was an outstanding fighter pilot and he was not stuck in 1941 with 1941 tactics. I'm only posting the story now for the reading. Not to prove any point.  I also figured the other topic was going off on a tangent with this sub-discussion in it.

 - Westy

First, we still dont know it was Galland  . I am talking on the basis that he was.

Second: A Me262 at 550mph has not many options other than run and run even more. It simply cant turn, and anyway Galland was familiarized with it since Fall'43 when he flew the v5 prototype. You can't even think on turnfighting in a Me262...but you can think on it in a 190D9 if you aren't familiarized with it and you dont know your enemy (how many times had Galland seen a P38 in the air?  )

I'd really like to know how many times did Galland fly a 190 before that fight.

Like it or not, grounded pilots get rusty, and air tactics change quite a lot from a year to other. 1941 had a completely different context than 1945, for sure.

And anyway, if he really was Galland, he WAS turnfighting in a 190D9.

And that doesnt seem quite clever. There must be some reason, isnt it?

 

Offline danish

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It was Lowell and Galland...
« Reply #4 on: December 20, 2000, 04:18:00 PM »
Westy
Would be gratefull for the reference.I know the story and have allways wanted to read it for myself, but have never found it.Might be one of those not too many occasions when a tale is so welldefined and welldocumented that it can tell us something FM wise ;=)

danish

Offline Westy

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It was Lowell and Galland...
« Reply #5 on: December 20, 2000, 05:08:00 PM »
 No problem Danish. It's one of those stories that doesn't make you feel like you were there, it couldn't really possibly do that. But it can give one a sliver of a taste for how quite a number of pilots may have felt in white knuckle, deadly aircombat.

  -Westy

Offline Westy

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It was Lowell and Galland...
« Reply #6 on: December 21, 2000, 08:13:00 AM »
Here it is. Thanks to my frirnd Dan aka "+Tiff" from another game/sim/time...  

-Westy

From "Top Guns"   by Joe Foss and Matthew Brennan.

(John Lowell's account of his fight with Galland 38 vs 190D9)
 
  "One of our last P38 missions was a flight to protect  bombers on
a mission near Berlin.  My squadron was flying top cover.  We were
attacked from above, out of the sun by sixteen long nosed FW 190s.
I was alerted by a flight leader in our squadron.  I saw a flight of four
Focke-Wulfs coming in from too high to effectively fire on my flight
so I quickly slowed the flight as we opened up laterally for a defensive
break and a head on attack that the Germans never wanted when they
were fighting P38s.  The lead German flight passed very close over
me with throttles back trying to slow down.

  I looked up at the German plane.   The pilot was looking down at me
as he eased ahead and close above me into sure death, unless he could
take violent evasive action.  He split-Sed and I followed him.  He nearly
got out of my sight because the P38 high-speed compressibility problem
kept me from staying with him in a vertical dive.  I stayed out of trouble
by doing a vertical barrel roll to pull several Gs and keep my speed under
control.  Finally he turned to find me, and I cut across to close with him.  

Then the fight started.

  He was a fantastic, wild, talented pilot who pulled all the tricks I had
ever seen.  But finally I got into a tight Lufbery with him and used my
clover-leaf surprise to get a few strikes.  None of them harmed the
power unit.  The long-nosed 190 had methyl injection that was usable
for ten-second spurts.  Then a pilot had to quit using it for a while
because the twenty-six percent added boost to the engine would burn
it up if used too long.  This pilot used his methyl injection very
advantageously to keep me from shooting him down.  When his methyl
was gone, he dived to the deck and dropped into a tar pit that was
about  500 feet deep and wide enough to fly a fighter in a tight turn.  
I got a few more strikes on him.  A portion of his vertical stabilizer and
one wingtip flew off.  Unfortunately I was getting low on gas and had to
break combat and head for the North Sea, and England.  After two
more circles in the pit I pulled up and flew away to the west.  I looked
back over my shoulder to see the FW-190 going the opposite way,
waggling his wings as if to say, "I'll see you tomorrow and we'll go at it again."

  A few years ago the American Fighter Aces had their annual reunion at

Maxwell AFB near Montgomery, Alabama.  The base commander invited five of the top living German Aces.  The first day I arrived in a large hall
where over one hundred Maxwell and AFA officers were gathered.  Ace
Gabreski, the highest scoring living USAF ace, who is a friend and a man
that I admire to the hilt, was talking with the German Aces, along with
several other US Aces.  One subject was the German attitude and tactics
relating to the P38. Gabby saw me come to the opposite side of room,
waved and hollered for me to come over.  He introduced me as the
highest scoring P38 Aces in Europe.

  When I shook hands with German General Adolf Galland, I said, "Adolf,
did you ever shoot down a P38?"

He said, "Yah, I shoot down eight."

  Then I asked him if any of his pilots told him about a fight in a long
nosed FW190 in late 44 against a P38 that wound up in a huge pit with
water and two crashed P38s on the bottom.  I described what had happened and the strikes I got on the long nosed 190, then told him
that when I ran low on gas and had to leave, the German pilot had
waggled his wings as he flew away in the opposite direction.  I was
using my hands and looking down as I talked and wasn't watching
Galland. When I looked up, he was pale white.

  He said, "You son of a squeak!  You dom neer keel me dat day!"

  Holy Mackeral!  All the pilots that heard our conversation bellowed
their surprise, including me.  Adolf wouldn't let me out of his sight
for the rest of the day, asking me how I got the P38 to do what I had
explained was my clover leaf in a tight Lufbery "Fight to the death"
tactic.  He wanted to know how I trained our pilots and had many
other questions about tactics."

Beurling

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It was Lowell and Galland...
« Reply #7 on: December 21, 2000, 08:24:00 AM »
I have this story in a book of mine.

They fought in a tar pit.

Galland said to the guy you darn neer killed me.

The us ace was the top eto 38 guy.

The way i see it Galland fought him to a draw when the fight was better for a 38.

I think Galland got into a bad sit. The us guy figured this guy knows his stuff and bugged.

Why? they both figured the odds were bad for them to live.

In AH the 38 would of won.

EYE

Offline danish

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It was Lowell and Galland...
« Reply #8 on: December 21, 2000, 08:50:00 AM »
Thx Westy!
The book of course is out of print according to Amazon, but the hunt is in ;=)

danish

PS: first impression is that Galland was too confident, failed to break away in time when he didnt get the kill, and got caught low and slow (anyone recognize this..).
Secondly the Dora seems surprisingly well suited even in this lufbery style fight.
Thirdly the claim is that this Dora is equipped with MW50 "in late 44".
Fourth "Adolf wouldn't let me out of his sight
for the rest of the day, asking me how I got the P38 to do what I had
explained was my clover leaf in a tight Lufbery "Fight to the death"
tactic."Anyone knows this clover leaf maneuver?

danish

Offline RAM

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It was Lowell and Galland...
« Reply #9 on: December 21, 2000, 08:54:00 AM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by Westy:
The long-nosed 190 had methyl injection that was usable
for ten-second spurts

Ten seconds? WTF!?...its TEN MINUTES!, and the Fw190D9 had FOUR 10 minute boosts available...

Something smells not quite well in that story, will come later and tell why, cause I can be wrong.

But the part about the MW50 "ten second" thing is fiction.

Offline RAM

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It was Lowell and Galland...
« Reply #10 on: December 21, 2000, 08:57:00 AM »
Here is a comprehensive list of Adolf Galland's kills, with sources included. http://members.aol.com/geobat66/galland/kills.htm  
There is only one kill in a 190, a B24 in an "unnoficial mission". There is a B17 in another "unnoficial mission". no info on the plane used in hte latter.

As I thought, no P38s listed. I doubt gallad shot down eight, to be true. Note that the kill list includes the "unnoficial" kills aswell, so it can't be that they aren't listed for that reason.

Westy I'm sorry, I dont believe that story  




[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 12-21-2000).]

Offline Staga

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It was Lowell and Galland...
« Reply #11 on: December 21, 2000, 09:22:00 AM »
I loaned my "Die Ersten und die Letzen" to my friend; Gotta get it back soon and check if there's something about this topic  

Offline Westy

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It was Lowell and Galland...
« Reply #12 on: December 21, 2000, 09:54:00 AM »
 No skin off my back RAM.  It was in a book and also published in the FighterAces quarterly news letter a couple of years ago.  If it is false then it won't hurt my feelings as I didn''t make the story up.

 I personaly think the 190-D9 pilot was someone other than Galland. Or perhaps Galland fibbed about eight P-38 kills at that meet.

   -Westy

[This message has been edited by Westy (edited 12-21-2000).]

Offline Dune

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It was Lowell and Galland...
« Reply #13 on: December 21, 2000, 11:26:00 AM »
 
Quote
I had many "violent missions" including my P-38 fight against a long-nose Fw 190 just before our switch from P-38's to P-51's. (note: 364th switched in Aug 44)  In 1987 at our American Fighter Aces' convention, I met a top German ace, General Adolf Galland, who remembered that flight.  I got many strikes on him but he got none on me.  It was NE of Hannover, Germany where he led me into a 500' deep, large tar pit.  I got low on fuel and had to leave.  He waggled his wings at me and went the other way.  Thirty-two U.S. aces heard him say, "You S.O.B., you damn near keel me dat day.

- This was taken from "The History of the 364th FG".  Col John Lowell was the CO of my grandfather's fighter squadron, the 384th FS/364th FG (my grandfather flew -38J's and -51D's with this squadron).  Lowell scored 7.5 kills, 4 in the P-38.

Don't believe it if you want to Ram.  I think it's your loss though.

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Lt Col Dune
X.O. 352nd Fighter Group
"The Blue Nosed Bastards of Bodney"

"Credo quia absurdum est." (I believe it because it is unreasonable)
- The motto of the Republic of Baja Arizona

Offline Dune

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It was Lowell and Galland...
« Reply #14 on: December 21, 2000, 11:30:00 AM »
P.S.  When the 364th showed up in England (Mar 44), Lowell was "challanged" to a duel with a Spitfire from a local (Honnington) RAF base.  Lowell beat him soundly.

When Lowell was stationed at Wright-Patterson at the beginning of the war, he was a test pilot evaluating the P-38.  He knew that plane inside and out.

P.S.S. My grandfather watched the "duel" and remembers it well.