Efficacy of Wingman Pairing

[Minakove]

I deeply apologize in advance. I openly admit I'm new, I've yet to actually see the arena, still trying to reel in my <3 of WWII the A6M2, etc etc etc insert lack of in-game experience here.

However, I have spent my entire life in love and admiration of war planes, maneuvers, and tactics. Historically Lead-Wingman tactics were trained, and breaking pair was taboo. Most pairs spent hours on hours as LEAD - wingman teams. Not switching places. Being Wingman does NOT take away any offensive capabilities. For example, The Tuskegee Airmen's one and only ace was a wingman (who i believe just died this year 2010). Most of his kills came from lagging and latching on to enemies who saw his lead "all alone," but at the same time, His lead would drag them through his solutions. THAT comes from TRUST in experience in skill on your pair. No trust, reflex and reaction take over. For a random I've-never-met-before pairing to work they both must believe the OTHER knows what he's doing. The Thatch Weave was devastatingly effective HISTORICALLY.

As far as Situational Awareness goes, your awareness isn't the same thing as there being 2 of you, even more unnerving when they're paired. Some fights (i'm sure) really come down to who slips first. That mistake is a LOT easier to capitalize on where there's 2 people.

I guess It's like this. Theres just too many variables for there to be a SOLID answer. A pair that know WHAT to do and HOW to pair and the skills to back it will be devastating. If either lack any of those requirements, It's probably more of a liability. In Dogfighting you NEVER leave your wingman, but you don't step on each other's toes and endanger each other. That's just sense.

Thanks for bothering to read this, I hope it was worth reading. Like I said in the beginning, i'm not familiar with in-AH and myself still trying to grasp maneuvering in AH, but historically it was needed for survival. They were also real military pilots who lived and breathed their training every day, and fought enemies that did the same thing. I'm not sure when i'll actually take the trial, but i hope I can be a challenge. I'm from a Jet & Space Sim background, specializing in evasive maneuvers... and having to UN-learn some things. Lot of things i'm just not used to and 2nd-nature habits i have to break first. Not used to stalling so easily, torquing into left rolls, and REALLY have to stop ripping off my own wings breaking when shot at. 

[FLS]

Minakove if you're that big a fan what are you waiting for? Sign up and head for the training area.

As Ghosth pointed out there's welded wing and loose deuce and they are apples and oranges.  You can do both with 4 A/C of course but welded wing in AH is best for inexperienced pilots who will benefit from following an experienced pilot through a furball. Loose deuce kills, IMO it's the best way to fight and the most fun, regardless of the number of opponents.

[JunkyII]

Question about wingman pairs....Is it good to pair an aggresive pilot with maybe a more timid one? the aggressive guy swoops in first maybe dragging 2 or so with him the timid one stays high and clears his six...rinse and repeat.

[thorsim]

is there anything better than a good wing-man ...

i love it when you find a guy who is on the same page as you ...

a good wing pair can be just devastating in nearly any situation ...

personally i like em loose in formation and tight in communication ...

[Ghosth]

Totally agree with thorsim.

Junky to further define your question, it works even better often if they are in dissimilar aircraft.
One turner, and one fast can be a deadly duo. An enemy can't turn with the turner without being a risk from the fast one swooping in. Can't run without the fast one being a very real threat.

The better the communication, and the better they know their own and each others capability's the more effective they are.

Minakove I'm in the Training Arena most every afternoon at some point. Most often 3 - 5 central time.
If that doesn't work, email me or send me a PM. I'd be glad to help get you started on the path.

[Lusche]

Junky to further define your question, it works even better often if they are in dissimilar aircraft.
One turner, and one fast can be a deadly duo. An enemy can't turn with the turner without being a risk from the fast one swooping in. Can't run without the fast one being a very real threat.

being a "lone wolf", I absolutely hate running into such a pair, particularly if I note after a few moments they are actively communicating and really "teaming up"   

[FLS]

Question about wingman pairs....Is it good to pair an aggresive pilot with maybe a more timid one? the aggressive guy swoops in first maybe dragging 2 or so with him the timid one stays high and clears his six...rinse and repeat.

Who do you want clearing your 6, the timid guy or the aggressive one?     

[Ghosth]

"Who do you want clearing your 6, the timid guy or the aggressive one? "

Both? 

[thorsim]

the smart aggressive one

[Minakove]

Neither, I'd rather have someone Cool, level, and accurate. Even the greatest evaders get hit. The less time they are back there, the sooner I can breathe again 

I would really love to. Especially since there are some advanced maneuvers i would LOVE to learn. Particularly the Hammerhead, Torque Rolls look so fun, and the inverted flat spin. More to an aerobatic degree for fun. Aerobatic precision creates military solutions by nature of precision control. As Jackie Chan once said, "My cup is full." I've spent too much time in Jets and more recently space Sims. Right now I'm focusing on breaking reflexive 2ND nature reactions. I've survived in the past using harsh hard extremely erratic evasive randomness. Something i QUICKLY figured out won't work here. I've played that style for so long, I just react when shot at... and to that I can say I've learned how to recover from the tumbling stalls quickly so long as my Zeke M2's wings aren't fluttering to the ground in front of me. I'm getting to the point I'm getting better at paying attention to airflow and easing into and out of maneuvers. So I'll definitely see you all soon, but it'll be no fun for either of us if I just snap break into a tumbling stall the moment tracers streak over my nose 

Don't worry, I'll be there to shoot at once I'm worth shooting at, and better believe I will shoot back. To steer back on topic, I've always lived by wingmen, and will never abandon mine. I'm also more than happy to play bait. It was a favorite tactic with my friends where they fly heavies and I "stir up the hornet's nest" and spend the next 10 minutes dodging while they picked 'em apart.

For the record, by NO means am i complaining about the flight system. ACTUALLY, I love it. The difficulty is a challenge and REALLY gives me an opportunity to expand my own piloting skills that were nearing their limits in previous environments. Plus I never really was aware of the "natural forces" I'd overcome in the past with sheer AB thrust and fly-by-wire lol. I have more admiration for WWII aircrews, and I already nearly cry at the MENTIONING of the 5th Bomber wing.

[FLS]

I understand your position but that's why I suggested the training arena to start. You get to practice with other people and the airplanes don't take damage from guns. There's also training aids available that show you how much lead to use for gunnery. I think you might adapt faster there than offline.

BTW since you mentioned aerobatics, you do know there's airshow smoke available offline and in training? The smoke trails are a bit short but it's still fun.

[PJ_Godzilla]

Don't worry, I'll be there to shoot at once I'm worth shooting at, and better believe I will shoot back.

You're worth shooting at right now. In some ways - and I say this from the honest position of having HATED it (it still happens, too, sometimes) - I think that period of getting punked repeatedly may be necessary.

I recall fondly a Saturday a couple of weeks back. I took off in an N1K2 bound north to help some friendlies cap an enemy base. When I arrived, I found about 3-4 friendlies hanging around the site just out of flak range. As I waited around, I got to see why they were staying.

Periodically, one of two different enemy pilots would up - one in a 110, the other in an SBD. My fellow knights were hanging around to hammer 'em each and every time they took off.

Shameful? Maybe. Enjoyable? Hell, yes.

I took part in that gangbang too. I fondly recall slowly flying my Nikkie right up under that Dauntless' *ss, then single-shotting him with 20's until he exploded in the most gratifying of ways.

After  a while, I got bored and ran low on ammo so I rtb'd and landed my ill-gotten kills, grinning like a scheissehaus rat who'd just feasted on half-digested offal <satisfied belch> 

[Minakove]

  I'm the type who would like to try to figure out a way to take off even with the enemy looming around. 

The recordings have helped a LOT, smoke too. I found the core of my handling issue yesterday.
My flight in AH has improved maybe 2x once it dawned on me to actually use ALL my information. It's kinda funny actually, but i needed to fly straight. I -was- flying almost perma-skidding. I'm guessing jets just have so much speed and thrust they push themselves nose-straight. I've apparently developed a habit of holding odd attitudes and angles to quicken reactive maneuvering. I guess it makes sense in a way, fly partway into a snap roll and it will execute faster when you tell it to. Easy fix so long as I just remember to watch the indicator lol. I still break too hard when I see tracers i'm not expecting. Like jumping. That's why I said i'm not worth shooting.  It's not a lack of skill, more like being out of tune, off balance. I have a tendency to break off my Zeke M2's completely off overstressing when i react to suprises. Though I kinda hate to admit i've started to fall in love with "Niki." She just creaks at times. Plus this way i'm not constantly re-taking off lol. Hopefully i'll be able to get enough time to "trim" myself and i'll be out to play in a few days.

Curious note, are all duels 1v1? or are there 2v2 Wingman fights?

[PJ_Godzilla]

There are those - I've seen 'em myself and even participated in a couple. Generally, though, it's a tag-team clusterf*ckin' gangbang - 4 on 2, 3 on 5, 6 buff and 5 fighters on 7 low uppers, you name it. It's realistic like that and for other reasons - and there are many ways in which it is not, as well.

[Nemisis]

Question about wingman pairs....Is it good to pair an aggresive pilot with maybe a more timid one? the aggressive guy swoops in first maybe dragging 2 or so with him the timid one stays high and clears his six...rinse and repeat.

Depends on who is leading the flight. If its the timid guy, it could help hold the agressive guy in check, and keep him from getting mobbed.

But if it the agressive guy, he will get too far ahead and again, he will be swarmed. Flip side is that the timid guy may be forced to be more agressive and improve.