Trim on WW1 Aircraft

[FLS]

The Sopwith Camel would start to loop if the pilot left the controls in the neutral position. 

Would that be at all speeds?
It would be interesting to see a reference for that.

[Anaxogoras]

Obviously not at stall speeds.

There's been a number of references to this cited over at the RoF forums.  I'll see if I can dig one up.

[BaldEagl]

Unfortunate, I think this will be the case. Trim has no place in a WW1 sim and acually detracts from the character of the machines.

Neither does autopilot but I bet it's there as a consession to gameplay.  How else are you going to get a beverage break in?

[Anaxogoras]

[Miska]

FLS, I've already decided to use trim only on the ground, obviously, and not to use voice. I was just wondering to what extent these design elements would be included in the game.  I really don't mind if they aren't, since they are easily implemented by the individual player.

[Anaxogoras]

Neither does autopilot but I bet it's there as a consession to gameplay.  How else are you going to get a beverage break in?

Again, auto-level for beer runs doesn't neuter the handling of the aircraft in a fight.  At least with WW2 aircraft nearly all of them had trimmable elevators.  The only WW1 aircraft I can name with elevator trim is the SE5a.

[Simba]

"Trim has no place in a WW1 sim and acually detracts from the character of the machines."

Not lateral or directional trim, certainly, but it should be included in those aircraft that were fitted with pitch trim such as the SE5a and Bristol F2B Fighter.

Anaxagoras, that description of the Camel's flying characteristics is very good - what book is it from, and where might I find a copy? I'm fortunate enough to own Bridgman and Stewart's 'The Clouds Remember', which is informative but not so detailed when it comes to Sopwith's Humpy One.

 

[FLS]

I can understand an individual A/C being tail heavy but why would they make them all like that? What was the upside?

[Bronk]

I can understand an individual A/C being tail heavy but why would they make them all like that? What was the upside?

You wouldn't need a lot of force to pull back on the stick.

[FLS]

It makes sense to set the tailplane incidence to balance the weight of the engine, guns, and pilot, all in the front third of the A/C, but it's silly to think they'd get it wrong. I expect it was tail heavy under some conditions but was rigged to fly in trim most of the time.

[Anaxogoras]

It makes sense to set the tailplane incidence to balance the weight of the engine, guns, and pilot, all in the front third of the A/C, but it's silly to think they'd get it wrong. I expect it was tail heavy under some conditions but was rigged to fly in trim most of the time.

They didn't "get it wrong."  I read of an account by a man who ferried a Spad VII to the old Rhinebeck aerodrome, and at the end of the short flight he was exhausted without having performed any stressful maneuvers.

Here is another passage from the same source:



From what I've experienced in RoF, if they did their homework correctly, the hands-off altitude would be well over 12k ft.

[Anaxogoras]

Anaxagoras, that description of the Camel's flying characteristics is very good - what book is it from, and where might I find a copy? I'm fortunate enough to own Bridgman and Stewart's 'The Clouds Remember', which is informative but not so detailed when it comes to Sopwith's Humpy One.

The original post says the passage was written by Norman Macmillan, but didn't mention which of his books it is from.

I suppose this whole tail heavy discussion is just more ammunition for you and the SE5, eh?

[Wmaker]

I bet combat trim and all the other bells and whistles will be available.

While I tend to think so too, I really really hope trims will be modelled only where they existed. So far we haven't seen any trim indicators in the screenshots but they might still be there somewhere. We shall see.

[FLS]

They didn't "get it wrong."  I read of an account by a man who ferried a Spad VII to the old Rhinebeck aerodrome, and at the end of the short flight he was exhausted without having performed any stressful maneuvers.

Here is another passage from the same source:

(Image removed from quote.)

From what I've experienced in RoF, if they did their homework correctly, the hands-off altitude would be well over 12k ft.

The information you supplied verifies my statement that it was rigged to fly in trim most of the time. Assuming of course they were usually flying at a reasonable altitude for a war zone. Thanks. 

That Spad 7 stopped at my dad's airfield on it's way to Rhinebeck, he has a grass strip and the Spad has a wooden tailskid so they were avoiding concrete runways. You probably know that from reading the account. My dad had an opportunity to fly it and turned it down. I still can't believe it. When I saw it at Rhinebeck it had a flat and the 2 volunteers trying to fix it kept pinching the tube so it looked like it was going to miss the show. I was able to help them out, it's the same as fixing a bicycle tire, so the Spad was able to fly that day. If you have a link to the ferry account I'd enjoy reading it.

[LesterBoffo]

I doubt you'll adjust anything, really. The speeds you're flying at have a whopping range of 75mph from stall to max speed in many cases... Not really much need for trim back then (heck, getting it in the air was a feat unto itself!).

 Well there were several fighters and two seaters that had elevator trim wheels, if not also rudder trim, in the cockpit.

 The Sopwith Tripehound and Half Strutter, and the Royal Air Factory SE5, SE5a and RE8.  So yeah, if the game allows for it, it should be modeled in these aircraft.  R. Collishaw was quoted as saying that the Half Strutter was very nice to fly in with your hands in your Sidcot pockets, on cold days.  Not that we have any of these worries, mind you.