Author Topic: Countering the Rolling Scissors  (Read 15856 times)

Offline Ack-Ack

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Countering the Rolling Scissors
« on: February 25, 2010, 07:35:29 PM »
In another thread, someone gives the advice that the best thing when fighting a Corsair is not to get into a rolling scissors with it.  While it may be true in the poster's opinion, it's rather misleading as it implies that nothing can beat the Corsair in such a maneuver when that is a clear false statement.  Again, with proper tactics and knowledge of one's plane and his opponents, the rolling scissor (no matter what planes are involved) is a maneuver that can be countered successfully.  All one needs to know is what to do in such situations.

Countering the Rolling Scissor

1. Realize that you are overshooting your opponent's turn and can no longer effect a Yo-Yo maneuver.

2. Do not attempt to pull into the target's radius of turn.  This will impose high G-loads, and possible buffet or stall will occur.  All airspeed advantage will be lost.

3. Relax G, slide around the outside of the turn, and thereby maintain an airspeed advantage.

4. Roll level, and zoom up (wings-level) as your opponent reverses into you.  When your opponent reverses, he will be unable to match your zoom, because he will have killed some of his airspeed on the reversal, besides having less airspeed to begin with.

5.  Continue to pull up, wings-level, and force your opponent forward and below your line of flight.  If he pulls up into a banked attitude, he cannot counter your maneuver, since: (a) His stall speed is higher, and (b) His pull-up is only a component of a straight pull-up.  If your opponent pulls up wings-level, he cannot match our rotation, because of your airspeed advantage.  In any case, your rotation in the vertical plane will be greater than your opponent's.  This will place him below and forward of your line of flight.  You will have nose to tail seperation.

6.  Roll off - roll in a direction away from your opponent's turn if he is in a banked attitude - and move into his six-o'clock position.  The roll-off will provide additional nose-tail seperation and will prevent a possible overshoot.

Source: Aerial Attack Study

Tomorrow, I'll post how to maneuver against a Rolling Scissors Counter.


ack-ack
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Offline Messiah

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Re: Countering the Rolling Scissors
« Reply #1 on: February 25, 2010, 07:37:22 PM »
-.-- --- ..- / .- .-. . / - . .... / ... ..- -.-. -.-
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Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: Countering the Rolling Scissors
« Reply #2 on: February 25, 2010, 07:43:15 PM »
-.-- --- ..- / .- .-. . / - . .... / ... ..- -.-. -.-

 :D


ack-ack
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Offline JunkyII

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Re: Countering the Rolling Scissors
« Reply #3 on: February 25, 2010, 08:02:37 PM »
Is this while your actually in rolling scissors? Sounds interesting, does this Aerial Attack come with pictures for us normal people? :)
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Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: Countering the Rolling Scissors
« Reply #4 on: February 25, 2010, 08:09:42 PM »
Is this while your actually in rolling scissors? Sounds interesting, does this Aerial Attack come with pictures for us normal people? :)

You're the attacker and the opponent tries to force a rolling scissor as a defensive maneuver.  No scanner so no image.


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Offline TequilaChaser

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RE: Ack-Ack's Sig Line
« Reply #5 on: February 25, 2010, 08:20:12 PM »
1st off, what happened to the DELETE option to delete a post in a thread?

anyways.........was posting about ack-ack's Sig Line...... wondering who he was suggesting it toward? or was it meant to be talking in third person?  :D

YOU ARE TEH SUCK

hmm?

.. ... /  - .... .- - /  ... --- -- . /  - -.-- .--. . /  --- ..-. /  .-.. . . - /  .-.. .- -. --. ..- .- --. . ..--..  


ok, sorry for the hijack...... lets get back on topic.......
« Last Edit: February 25, 2010, 08:33:37 PM by TequilaChaser »
"When one considers just what they should say to a new pilot who is logging in Aces High, the mind becomes confused in the complex maze of info it is necessary for the new player to know. All of it is important; most of it vital; and all of it just too much for one brain to absorb in 1-2 lessons" TC

Offline Saxman

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Re: Countering the Rolling Scissors
« Reply #6 on: February 25, 2010, 08:50:46 PM »
In another thread, someone gives the advice that the best thing when fighting a Corsair is not to get into a rolling scissors with it.  While it may be true in the poster's opinion, it's rather misleading as it implies that nothing can beat the Corsair in such a maneuver when that is a clear false statement.  Again, with proper tactics and knowledge of one's plane and his opponents, the rolling scissor (no matter what planes are involved) is a maneuver that can be countered successfully.  All one needs to know is what to do in such situations.

Countering the Rolling Scissor

1. Realize that you are overshooting your opponent's turn and can no longer effect a Yo-Yo maneuver.

2. Do not attempt to pull into the target's radius of turn.  This will impose high G-loads, and possible buffet or stall will occur.  All airspeed advantage will be lost.

3. Relax G, slide around the outside of the turn, and thereby maintain an airspeed advantage.

4. Roll level, and zoom up (wings-level) as your opponent reverses into you.  When your opponent reverses, he will be unable to match your zoom, because he will have killed some of his airspeed on the reversal, besides having less airspeed to begin with.

5.  Continue to pull up, wings-level, and force your opponent forward and below your line of flight.  If he pulls up into a banked attitude, he cannot counter your maneuver, since: (a) His stall speed is higher, and (b) His pull-up is only a component of a straight pull-up.  If your opponent pulls up wings-level, he cannot match our rotation, because of your airspeed advantage.  In any case, your rotation in the vertical plane will be greater than your opponent's.  This will place him below and forward of your line of flight.  You will have nose to tail seperation.

6.  Roll off - roll in a direction away from your opponent's turn if he is in a banked attitude - and move into his six-o'clock position.  The roll-off will provide additional nose-tail seperation and will prevent a possible overshoot.

Source: Aerial Attack Study

Tomorrow, I'll post how to maneuver against a Rolling Scissors Counter.


ack-ack

No aircraft is unbeatable in every situation, but that still doesn't mean that it being better to avoid that situation in the first place isn't damned good advice. If a 109 pilot commits to a rolling scissors against a Corsair (as in: NO attempts to counter or escape, but outright intent ride through the maneuver in hopes of pushing for the shot) as long as the Hog pilot doesn't botch it it's only a matter of time.

What you're describing is essentially just that: Not getting sucked into the rolling scissor at all (which is pretty much the recommendation I made to begin with) but using more of a lag pursuit with a high vertical extension instead of trying to follow him through the roll.
Ron White says you can't fix stupid. I beg to differ. Stupid will usually sort itself out, it's just a matter of making sure you're not close enough to become collateral damage.

Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: RE: Ack-Ack's Sig Line
« Reply #7 on: February 25, 2010, 08:55:49 PM »
1st off, what happened to the DELETE option to delete a post in a thread?

anyways.........was posting about ack-ack's Sig Line...... wondering who he was suggesting it toward? or was it meant to be talking in third person?  :D

YOU ARE TEH SUCK

hmm?

.. ... /  - .... .- - /  ... --- -- . /  - -.-- .--. . /  --- ..-. /  .-.. . . - /  .-.. .- -. --. ..- .- --. . ..--..  


ok, sorry for the hijack...... lets get back on topic.......

Actually, the morse I have in my signature, "-.. --- --. / ..-. .. --. .... - . .-. ... / -.-. .-.. ..- -..." are the initials of a group I belong to that is made up of like minded individuals, of which you are a member of.  Messiah's morse, "-.-- --- ..- / .- .-. . / - . .... / ... ..- -.-. -.-" is just an example of his jealousy because he knows that (a) Chicks get wet for Lightning drivers and (b) I didn't have to take my little sister to the prom like he did.


ack-ack
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Offline TequilaChaser

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Re: Countering the Rolling Scissors
« Reply #8 on: February 25, 2010, 09:04:10 PM »
ah rgr, ack ack, I did not realize they were 2 different codes.......thought both were the same, and did not really look at both closely to compare if their were any differences....  :aok
"When one considers just what they should say to a new pilot who is logging in Aces High, the mind becomes confused in the complex maze of info it is necessary for the new player to know. All of it is important; most of it vital; and all of it just too much for one brain to absorb in 1-2 lessons" TC

Offline FLS

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Re: Countering the Rolling Scissors
« Reply #9 on: February 25, 2010, 09:28:19 PM »
Ack-Ack it seems you're quoting Boyd's counter to the scissors not the rolling scissors.

Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: Countering the Rolling Scissors
« Reply #10 on: February 25, 2010, 10:17:18 PM »
You can use the counter for both flat and rolling scissors, but not against the vertical scissors for the obvious reasons.


ack-ack
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Offline FLS

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Re: Countering the Rolling Scissors
« Reply #11 on: February 25, 2010, 10:33:41 PM »
If you lag roll in a rolling scissors aren't you giving the defensive fighter turning room?

Offline LLogann

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Re: RE: Ack-Ack's Sig Line
« Reply #12 on: February 26, 2010, 01:07:21 AM »
It's been gone for like 3 years.

1st off, what happened to the DELETE option to delete a post in a thread?


Rolling Scissors?  I go vertical.  Lately I've been flying more BnZ..... Roll your scissor all you want...... I got E.

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Offline Ardy123

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Re: Countering the Rolling Scissors
« Reply #13 on: February 26, 2010, 04:02:40 AM »
Ak Ak do you have a vid of this? I can visualize it for the flat scissors but I'm having trouble seeing how it works in the rolling scissors, unless the attacker has a large e discrepancy.

What about this move.... Sometime it works for me...

1) as the plane is diving off your left wing in the rolling scissors, level your wings
2) turn out to the right
3) turn hard to the left and take the snap shot as he pulls up in front of your guns from underneath you.

The effectively forces the rolling scissors into a flat scissors. which you will also loose against if fighting a 'turnier' plane at co-e states.


« Last Edit: February 26, 2010, 04:05:27 AM by Ardy123 »
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Offline RTHolmes

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Re: Countering the Rolling Scissors
« Reply #14 on: February 26, 2010, 06:14:11 AM »
If you lag roll in a rolling scissors aren't you giving the defensive fighter turning room?

thats what I was thinking  :headscratch:
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