Industrial wind farms

[oakranger]

They pollute the landscape. 

[vorticon]

how many nuclear plants are there in the world, how many years have they been operating, and how many have had a "melt down"?

"A 2003 study commissioned by the European Commission remarked that "core damage frequencies of 5 × 10−5 [per reactor-year] are a common result" or in other words, one core damage incident in 20,000 reactor years.[3] A 2008 study performed by the Electric Power Research Institute, the estimated core damage frequency for the United States nuclear industry is estimated at once in 50,000 reactor years, or 2 × 10−5.[5]

Assuming there are 500 reactors in use in the world, the above numbers mean that, statistically, one core damage incident would be expected to occur somewhere in the world every 40 or 100 years, respectively."

[dkff49]

Diversity is the key to energy problems. In the end for our energy needs to be sustained it will have to come from multiple means. The thing here is many people seem to think in our search for alternative energy we need to find a solve all energy source. The thing is that would be a disaster in and of itself. What would happen is we would become too reliant on that source and when it causes problems humans would be saying "WTF are we going to do now".

Every energy source has it's downsides the reason for diversity is not to find a solve all solution but to use the advantages of one to cancel out or minimize the disadvantages of another.

example:

Wind does not blow all the time, but the sun shines quite a bit.
The sun goes down or hides behind the clouds, well the wind might still be blowing.

Both of thes take the drain off of oil and coal which can then in turn be used for something else and maybe even reduce the cost through reduction in demand, even if only by a small fraction.

The fossil fuel form of power generation will come to an end. The big question is when. There have been amny estimates and so far many of them have come and gone but should we wait until it becomes a real issue before we start working on alternatives. This where mankind as fallen on many things. We become too dependant on one thing until it runs out completely instead of thinking ahead and looking for a solution before it becomes a real problem.

Isy bring on the wind, solar, hydraulic,  tides, geothermal, and whatever else they can think of, None of these systems will be anywhere near their peak performance if they are used for any real amount of time.

[68ZooM]

They pollute the landscape. 

no worse than cell towers, billboards, communications towers, coal plants, Dams with there massive power grids, the list could go on as to what pollutes the landscapes.    we cant depend on what we've been using forever.

[oakranger]

no worse than cell towers, billboards, communications towers, coal plants, Dams with there massive power grids, the list could go on as to what pollutes the landscapes.    we cant depend on what we've been using forever.

Yea, but it is one less object that we do not need. 

[FireDrgn]

All these complaints.

One source of energy will run out and emits pollution and smog when burned. 

The other is completely renewable, will never run out, and emits nothing.

And somehow there is an argument?

You know they have diesel engines in them to get them spinning right?   

[Sonicblu]

Firedrgn knows one of the dirtly little secrets of horizontal wind mills.

Payback is calculated at higher up time rates that they are currently getting with windmills. Some of the better up time rates are about 25% to 30% of the time with wind power right now.

Windmills can produce the power if the wind blows all the time.

I am currently in the middle of a 80 MW Vertical magnetically levetated hybrid system. And if our math if right the best we can do is 75% up time to produce energy. Right now that won't even sevice the debt to get the thing built.

Do a search on Maglev power generation. Speciffically MWTT srry will post link when I can.

Anyway I think it is one way to do it but from my research it will take a hybrid system no matter what to produce the energy needed.

The real Holy Grail of alternative energy is Storage. If someone figures out a better way to store the energy the problems would go away.
Right now we are thinking of  Storing the energy in the from of HOt water underground. In insulated tanks. About 4 millions gallons is what we will need.
Anyway it is a sloppy way to do it right now but it is one of the better ways.

Another way is Sterling energy  they use a Sterling engine to produce power. It has some real potential. Again it is all about storage so it can be used in peak energy loads, and when it is not actually making power. Like at night.

[mtnman]

Personally, I don't see them as a very "green" solution.  

Sure, they have their good points, but they have their bad points too.  I see them as a form of habitat destruction.  And specifically, a destroyer of a habitat that's already under enough stress (prairies).  Many prairie species avoid vertical structures, so spreading these wind turbines around renders the habitat useless for them...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9srPoOU6_Z4&feature=player_embedded

Depending on the study you choose, I guess they're dangerous, or not dangerous to raptors and migrating birds.  

Personally, I won't fly my birds around them.  I've seen dead raptors near them, I've seen video of them killing birds, and I know of falconers who've had their birds killed by them.  I've also noted the lack of wildlife around them.

On the other hand, I've seen studies that showed them to be only a minor cause of bird mortality (1-2 bird deaths of all species, per turbine).  And, I doubt they're as dangerous to birds as power lines and methane-burners at landfills.

[Skuzzy]

Sonicblu, I should think a brine tank would be a better medium to store heat.  It can carry higher thermal loads with lower pressures due to the higher boiling point.  Run water pipes through the brine to convert the water to steam.

You can also store energy in a large flywheel.  Take any excess energy to power a DC motor to spin the wheel.  Multiple wheels if you have enough excess.  They can be stacked.  Or use the excess thermal energy to a turbine to spin the flywheel assembly.

Take a few 100 ton flywheels and they can generate quite a bit of energy for a while.

Some of the Sterling designs are pretty interesting as well.

It is a subject I find fascinating.

EDIT:  Thinking a bit about this.  What about taking the flywheels and submerge them in oil and pump them full of helium (or wrap them in a helium balloon structure).  This would not reduce the mass, but would help to levitate the flywheels reducing the friction to a much smaller coefficient than suspending it in air.  Hmm.  Just thinking out loud.

[Shamus]

Firedrgn knows one of the dirtly little secrets of horizontal wind mills.

Payback is calculated at higher up time rates that they are currently getting with windmills. Some of the better up time rates are about 25% to 30% of the time with wind power right now.

Windmills can produce the power if the wind blows all the time.

I am currently in the middle of a 80 MW Vertical magnetically levetated hybrid system. And if our math if right the best we can do is 75% up time to produce energy. Right now that won't even sevice the debt to get the thing built.

Do a search on Maglev power generation. Speciffically MWTT srry will post link when I can.

Anyway I think it is one way to do it but from my research it will take a hybrid system no matter what to produce the energy needed.

The real Holy Grail of alternative energy is Storage. If someone figures out a better way to store the energy the problems would go away.
Right now we are thinking of  Storing the energy in the from of HOt water underground. In insulated tanks. About 4 millions gallons is what we will need.
Anyway it is a sloppy way to do it right now but it is one of the better ways.

Another way is Sterling energy  they use a Sterling engine to produce power. It has some real potential. Again it is all about storage so it can be used in peak energy loads, and when it is not actually making power. Like at night.

A proven example of storing excess base capacity, obviously could be used for storing peak as well.

https://www.consumersenergy.com/welcome.htm?/content/hiermenugrid.aspx?id=31

shamus

[dkff49]

The real Holy Grail of alternative energy is Storage. If someone figures out a better way to store the energy the problems would go away.

Funny you mention this I quite often wonder if one day the power companies main role won't switch over to power storage with the bulk of their power coming from their customers instead.

For instance:

With the almost inevitable reduction in the cost of solar cells, the homeowners and businesses start to install them more frequently on their already existing roofs, generating more power than they can use. The power company buys this power from them and in turn stores it up until night fall or days of less sun and then sells it back to the consumer.

This type of setup would of course work for any kind of power generation method.

[morfiend]

EDIT:  Thinking a bit about this.  What about taking the flywheels and submerge them in oil and pump them full of helium (or wrap them in a helium balloon structure).  This would not reduce the mass, but would help to levitate the flywheels reducing the friction to a much smaller coefficient than suspending it in air.  Hmm.  Just thinking out loud.

 Actually Skuzzy I think someone beat you to that idea!!  I recall a linear electrical motor being tested and they used a helium envelope to reduce the friction.It may have been something to do with a railgun,I cant remember exactly,but I do recall the helium being used and a tent to contain it.

   

[Wingnutt]

why not instead of putting them on hills and letting wind drive them,  put them in the water one the coast and let the tide/currents drive them.  tide is more constant and predictable than wind, and tidal flow carries more energy than the wind..

[john9001]

"A 2003 study commissioned by the European Commission remarked that "core damage frequencies of 5 × 10−5 [per reactor-year] are a common result" or in other words, one core damage incident in 20,000 reactor years.[3] A 2008 study performed by the Electric Power Research Institute, the estimated core damage frequency for the United States nuclear industry is estimated at once in 50,000 reactor years, or 2 × 10−5.[5]

Assuming there are 500 reactors in use in the world, the above numbers mean that, statistically, one core damage incident would be expected to occur somewhere in the world every 40 or 100 years, respectively."

the question was "how many have had a melt down"?

[Shamus]

Funny you mention this I quite often wonder if one day the power companies main role won't switch over to power storage with the bulk of their power coming from their customers instead.

For instance:

With the almost inevitable reduction in the cost of solar cells, the homeowners and businesses start to install them more frequently on their already existing roofs, generating more power than they can use. The power company buys this power from them and in turn stores it up until night fall or days of less sun and then sells it back to the consumer.

This type of setup would of course work for any kind of power generation method.

Depends on the spread between what they charge and what they pay, they make money by selling you power, not buying it from you.

They can currently generate power for a tiny fraction of what a point of use producer can on a base line basis.

shamus