Strange feelings with DORAs turning ability

[Naudet]

I have the bad feeling that the DORA doesnt turn like it should.

Here the reason for this feeling.

I had a dogfight with a P47 Thunderbolt, the Bolt hat the alt, and manged to get on my six. I did a hard break turn and was able to avoid hits(i think it was due to the speed differnce the P47 couldnt turn inside me).
But than the following happened, the P47 got bck on my six, deaccelerated and stayed on my six at 300 yards, co-alt (about 5K).
So at the start of the follwing we both had the same alt, speed and E.
I thought, OK now i can turn him, cause his P47 is the even a worse turnfighter than my D9 (i hope there is no doubt that this is a fact of WW2). So i pulled a hard 5,5 G turn, near to the blackout, and he did the same, cause distance did not increase or decrease. WEP was on, so i though the P47 would bleed E faster than me. But no, he stayed in this turn, till i had to reduce the G loading to avoid stall and a stop in midair, but the P47 had still enough E to lead me and hit me.
The distance was the same over the whole turning time. So teh same of the P47 was the same as mine.
And i know that a P47 cant turn as tight as a DORA, especially when the speed has droped enought so that turn radius and speed is related to lift, engine power and wing loading.

[Buzzbait]

S!

I suggest you take a look at the respective wing loading of the Dora and the P-47D25.  You'll find the P-47 is better.  And in a sustained turn the most important factor is wingloading.  In a high speed initial turn, your Dora might be better, although the Jugs were good too.

[Jekyll]

 

Originally posted by Buzzbait:
And in a sustained turn the most important factor is wingloading.

Don't forget powerloading .... it's VERY important in a sustained turnfight.



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When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
Chapter 13, verse 11

[Naudet]

I dont want to offend u, but what u say is that a bird (the D9) that was rated as equal to the Spit 14 by a GB test pilot (Cpt. Eric Brown) who flew all WW2 aircraft in comparision trials, actually isnt worth the time spent for getting alt in AH, cause all other fighters in AH runs rings around it?

If a Mustang had probs to turn an A8 (as reported in many books i.e. JG26 - Top Guns of the LW), than a P47 should never be able to turn a D9.
Why, very simple, a P47 didnt turn like a Stang (right?? I never read that a P47 ever was able to turn as good as a stang) and the D9 turns better than the A8 (as reported by GE pilots who flew both).

But i will stop here, and will modify my guidelines when flying a Dora.

1. Get even more alt.
2. Never fight 1 on 1 without alt
3. Never try to turn -> so only make one pass and say bye bye
4. get used to be called "coward" or "run-dora"


P.S. I am still waiting for a Vermillion answer  

[This message has been edited by Naudet (edited 03-28-2001).]

[MANDOBLE]

Naudet, just what I know very well after months of experience with A5/A8 and now D9 in AH.

P47/P51 bleed energy slower than A5/A8. P51/P47 can turn easily inside A8 and even inside the A5.
P51/P47 will outzoom climbing A5/A8.
P51/P47 will outdive A5/A8.
P51/P47 at hi speed outroll A5/A8.
P51/P47 will reverse in the vertical faster and smoother than A5/A8.

In terms of agility, I put the D9 between A5 and A8 (closer to A8), so, I never expect to be able to outturn P51/P47 co E.

Against the 47 you can try a "slow" spiral climb to take advantage of the D9 acceleration, but dont try to outturn it in the horizontal plane.

[Naudet]

Thx Mandoble, for the data and tips.

Btw against a tiff a slow spiral climb will not work.

i always wonder when i fly a D9 in a flight sim, how any GE pilot could call it the "best german piston-engined fighter of the war", were in fact, in any sim (i bet in WW2 it was different) every little BF 109 is a much better fighter than the FW190.

I will too, test my skills in other birds over the next weeks, i think P51, Spit IX and LA7 will be a good choice to test with.

[This message has been edited by Naudet (edited 03-28-2001).]

[juzz]

1. Thunderbolt wing is shaped like a Spitfire wing, but with a superior airfoil section. Wing design affects speed loss in a turn.
2. Fuel load!!! P-47D can carry some 2000lbs+ of internal fuel.

[Glunz]

If you find yourself low and slow in the Dora, you have lost the fight already. Only if the skill disparity is largely in your favor you can hope to successfully fight it out. Even an escape is a victory then !

However, do not blame the plane or FM. The Dora was never ment to be flown that way.

It is, IMO, the best piston engined fighter the Luftwaffe had. Why ? Because it adds more potential to already dangerous 190A series. Speed !

The trick is not to Quake it around. Choose your fights carefully, always fight from advantage, never fight at disadvantage. If some of your enemies have problem with that, fine, that's why they probably chose TnB machines anyway. Teach them to respect the dora. Never fight their way. Attack and disengage when it suits you. They will probably hate you for this, but it is their problem.

Early 190As had this luxury. And they did wonderfully. But even they would be dead if caught low and slow.

Only when P 51s arrived it became harder to 190s. No more easy escapes. The Dora switches the balance once again. With Dora, it is again like it was in 1942 - with enough alt and speed you are untouchable.

Turning in horizontal is a big no-no for LW planes since 1939. Maybe even from 1916   .

Why do you think you have the roll rate ? With P 47 behind you, just roll out of the way and pick speed. When that brick rolls to match your roll, repeat the process. Your E income is far greater than his and soon you will dzctate the fight. And if the odds are bad, you can run away. If at alt, dive, roll into one direction, pull into blackout, roll once again and you are gone. He can't possibly follow.

Still, with TAS anywhere below 300 mph do not think of entering the fight. 400 TAS is even better. 5k of alt is a minimum energy cushion. Break those rules and you are giving stickpullers a chance they don't deserve.

You say you were with P47 at 5k ? How fast were you. What were you trying to do ? In situation when he is on your six, flatturn is a bad move (zoom climb would be the worst move). Instead, you should have picked up speed and shake him off in high speed series of maneuvers. Then get ouf of sight, climb, and come back and nail him.

[This message has been edited by Glunz (edited 03-28-2001).]

[gatt]

Naudet,
how much fuel did you have in your Dora, and what about the P-47's fuel load? Many allied pilots fly with 25% fuel and drop tank(s). And Ponies and Jugs with very little fuel, WEP and combat flaps can do amazing things.

BTW, I never ever enter turnfites driving Focke-Wulf's. When I cannot maneuver in the vertical, the maximum I usually do is a < 90 degrees flat turn (if I've enuff E). Instantaneous turn rate is very good due to roll rate and good "high-g" behaviour. But then I unload and extend.


[This message has been edited by gatt (edited 03-28-2001).]

[Naudet]

To Glunz, fight started at around 15K, he was a bit higher, and so no way to get away (even a D9 cant dive from a P47), i used the roll and SPlit S combo time and time, till i got to 5, there u had to do the horizonatl brak, cause if i would have rollt he would have had 1 sec to fire at a straight flying plane.
 

To Gatt:I had around 50& fuel at the start.

What really amazes me is that i survive with the D9 in furballs below 10K (as long as someone calls out "Check 6   ), even down to 1k for hours and hours and at speeds that are not much greater than 320 mph and fall down to 230mph in evasive moves, but when it comes to a 1on1 i get my bud handed over.

[gatt]

You could not outdive and outroll him? Provided you had enuff saparation from him, it is hard to believe.

[Naudet]

Outdive a P47? Hows that? When there is one category for a WW2 fighters in whcih an allied fighter rulled it was the dive and that was the P47.

Maybe its only me, but if i roll the D9 at full roll rate, i miss the point were to pull into the Split S   , maybe i have to ajust my stick setting so it reacts faster to aileron control.

[MANDOBLE]

Naudet, IMO, Dora is one the best, if not the best not perked planes in the actual arena. It can build up energy faster (considering all altitudes) than any plane with the exception of G10, but it has much better control than G10 at hi speeds. (note: G10 outturns the D9 at medium and lo speeds).

Obviously, this is not an "easy" plane. Surelly any Spit pilot flying the D9 will cry "WTF plane". IMO, 190D9 was the best piston engine fighter of the WWII that saw combat in large numbers, followed by Spit XIV/Yak9U.

The big problem in AH is that you must be really, really close to the enemy to have any chance of scoring hits and it has almost null snapshot capability. So, some times you must get into very close dogfights to be able to kill cons.

IMO, something is wrong with the AH D9 gunnery.

[gatt]

AFAIK, the AH P47 compress at very high speed and her roll rate is not so good. I dunno if this is right or not. What I know is that at very high speeds I prefer the 190D-9. This is not RL  

<Edit> I agree with Mandoble. I dunno if the reason is the cannons/prop synchronization but there is something weird I dont feel while driving a 2x20mm A-5.


[This message has been edited by gatt (edited 03-28-2001).]

[Naudet]

Mandoble, since the DORA is out i fly it day in day out, i always have choosen my fights in it well (most time).

As i said i have np to hit with the DORA, i have probs to move this birdy into firing position.

In 1on1 equal to the start (me with alt and E) i normally end up with the enemy on my 6 not he with me on his. The only way to avoid death then is to run, if i try to fight again, i die.
Cause of this i think there is something with the DORA E management, even when i completly avoid horizontal moves and fly vertikal only, to hold my E. Even than the D9 burns so much E that after 3-4 passes the enemy turns the tables and the only option is to run, if the enemy is slower.