center trim axis's

[lengro]

When you press CTRL+X you toggle between combat trim and trim off.
In the trim off state, the trim axis's do not go to their center position - I would like an option to make this possible.
It could be implemented as an alternative "combat trim / trim off and recenter"-toggle

That is my wish  


(the above do not apply if you map trim to analogue controllers - disabling combat trim in that case puts trim at its analogue controllers current position)

[lengro]

Maybe I should elaborate a bit:

IMO combat trim is a bit like the steering assistance you can enable in most racing sims:

In a racing sim:
Steering assistance dynamically manipulate controller input to reduce the needed input to stay on the optimal path on the track.

In AH:
Combat trim dynamically manipulate controller input to reduce the needed input for straight flying at any speed.

Now, in many situations the above systems are very helpfull and as such, needed features.

But, there a times when I in AH - especially in a hard knife fight - want to know that:
what my plane does right now is ONLY a result of my controllers deflection from center position AND forces acting on plane.
(I want to disable the little invincible pilot who at the same time manipulate rudder, elevator and ailerons a bit)

As it is today, when I disable combat trim, I have to locate the trim gauges in the cockpit and then move all three until they are at there center position. It would be nice to could do this with just a push of a:

"combat trim/neutral trim"-toggle

[gyrene81]

So you want to be able to "zero" all trim axis with the push of a button...like is done in IL2.

Not sure how good of an option this would be...trim settings don't change instantaneously in AH so even if it was an option you would have to wait for all trim axis to center...why would you want centered trim settings in a fight anyway? Have you ever manually centered all trim axis? You can't let go of your stick unless you're using auto-pilot.

[lengro]

So you want to be able to "zero" all trim axis with the push of a button...like is done in IL2.

Exactly

Not sure how good of an option this would be...trim settings don't change instantaneously in AH so even if it was an option you would have to wait for all trim axis to center...

If you map trim settings to analogue controllers they actually do change instantly when you go from manual trim to combat trim.
But not from combat trim to manual trim. (I never understood why HT made that difference.)
However, the wait is only a few secs, that is not a problem for me.

why would you want centered trim settings in a fight anyway? Have you ever manually centered all trim axis? You can't let go of your stick unless you're using auto-pilot.

In 1vs1 duels I often fly with manual centered trim (if I have time to set it up that is), constantly working with the controllers - in this case I don't want a dynamic trim system to interfere in the fight.

[morfiend]

Len,

  Have you checked the "trim set" command? I believe it's default period{.}

  I'm not sure it's what your asking for but I thought maybe you could try it and see if it helps.

   

[lengro]

Len,

  Have you checked the "trim set" command? I believe it's default period{.}

  I'm not sure it's what your asking for but I thought maybe you could try it and see if it helps.

   

Hi Morf 

yeah - I know the trim set command, it takes your current controller deflections and dials them into the corresponding trim axis's - thus letting you release controllers while maintaining the planes state.

However, it can't be used to center trim settings.

[Ghosth]

Lengro can you prove that just because the trim bars are not centered they are having an effect?


Setting trim bars in the center is not necessarily setting them to have no effect. Depending on the speed and alt your flying at.

You may be better off cycling CT on and off then forget about them.

Either way its going to be hard to prove. The influence is so small compared to stick.

[Krusty]

[EDIT: I'm not sure if this sounds like I'm trying to be difficult or anything. I'm not trying to be. Rather than re-type it I'll just add a comment saying "sorry" ahead of time.]

I don't think trim works the way you describe it lengro.

Trim just sets an offset angle deflection (it resets the default) based on your current speed. It is not constantly adjusting things for you, or dampening things for you, when you're in a knife fight. There's a table or chart that says "at this speed, deflect ailerons N degrees, rudder N degrees, and elevators N degrees." Then it just updates that chart periodically based on airspeed.

At worst, it dampens elevator authority in specific planes because it is trying to trim it one way and you're pulling the other.

I understand your request, but question the cause-effect relationship. Say you're set at "zero trim" like you just took off. You're fighting the plane more because it is out of trim, and more than likely are going to lose because you could not get your nose down in the right window for a shot, or were too busy fighting the wingtip stall to evade the bandit rolling into you from a rolling scissor.

Other than the minute amount of drag (so minute it won't effect a dogfight) what benefit does having "zeroed trim"* do?  I'm not quite sure what the benefit is. Say you've zeroed the trims: You still fight the stick to get the plane to go where you want. Say you've toggled CT on and off: It's trimmed for your speed band, and if you get significantly faster you'll fight the stick to get the plane to go where you want.

Is the end result just fighting the stick, same as you do now? 

*= in quotes because I don't know if that's the actual term

[hitech]

I can think of no reason why you would ever want to simple put the trim tabs in the indicated zero position. Are you assuming the trim tabs remove performance, if so, they do not. combat trim works like Krusty said.

The only reason I can think of that anyone would ever want to fly a plane out of trim is to assist in a pull out of a high speed dive. Am I missing something?

iTech

[Pannono]

iTech

Do you work for Apple now HT?

[gyrene81]

Do you work for Apple now HT?

OMG, I can't believe you jumped on that... 

I think I hear a bomb dropping.... 

[lengro]

Krusty, No worries - I understand what you are saying
I know trim is based on a speed lookup-table - but I dont know how close the steps are 10mph, 20mph, 50mp? - hence I used the term dynamic trim.  


ok, to clarify I just made a small Youtube movie:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbvb-FtJVCg

Notice the change through this loop manouvre, there is a:

• 25% change on aileron trim
• 50% change on elevator trim
• 10% change on rudder trim

while speed varies from 213 to 59 mph

Setting trim bars in the center is not necessarily setting them to have no effect. Depending on the speed and alt your flying at.

Ghosth <S>
if you look out your wing with aileron trim at center, you can see the aileron aligns with the rest of the wing. Now try to move aileron trim in small steps up and down, you can see the aileron move, and you can feel the slight change in the planes roll rate.

[Krusty]

Lengro, any chance you migth try similar moves in a non-109 plane? See if this is just specific to the 109 trim tables?

First thing that pops to mind is the most severe trim swing is right around the 120mph mark I know the 109s need a lot of trim at lower speeds, and can get nose heavy, and I'm thinking "Maybe you just got below that threshold where the 109 needs a ton of trim to fly smooth" and then it drops back to normal as you get past 120mph again?

I wonder if a more stable P-51 would have less trim swing, and if maybe something like the Ta152 (more unstable) would have more?

[lengro]

Are you assuming the trim tabs remove performance, if so, they do not.

Hitech,
its only a matter of when my joystick is in its center position, I want elevators and ailerons to have no deflection - no matter the speed. (Just as it is today if you map trim to analogue controllers in their middle position and turn combat trim off).

EDIT:
I'm fully aware the plane then is out of trim and will only fly straight if I compensate with controllers. But in a hard turnfight I prefer feeling the forces acting on the plane rather than have them dynamically dampened by a trim system.

[gyrene81]

That's with combat trim on isn't it? I thought you said you wanted all trim axis centered with combat trim off? Otherwise you're talking manual over ride of combat trim while it's engaged.