Reviewing the "HO"

[FA_Refugee]

I would suggest you spend some time learning to avoid the other guy's guns. Once you do that the "HO" ceases to be something that might cause anger and instead becomes something you welcome as an opportunity to grab angles away from the other guy.


Fly to the elbow. It really is simple. If you get on or inside the other guy's turn circle it is impossible for him to get guns on you.

As an example, the classic multiple HO pass fight usually involves a guy in a decent turning aircraft with a big gun package. He only wants a snapshot guns pass. He will usually extend just enough to yank on the stick hard enough to flip around and get guns on you. The classic mistake in this situation is to fly pure pursuit (velocity vector on the bandit). This solves his geometry problem and guarantees him a gunshot if he has enough turning room. It is easy enough to deny the shot. Instead of flying pure pursuit, fly to the elbow. Fly lag pursuit. Put the velocity vector where he was, not where he is. The idea is to get on or inside his turn circle before he gets the nose around.

If the situation is one where a level bandit went nose high to pitch back to you, fly to the spot where he went nose high before you go nose high to pursue him. This is a good general rule for lag pursuit. Fly to the spot where he initiated his maneuver before you initiate yours. This will keep you in lag, on his turn circle and out of his attempt to flip around for a front quarter snapshot. Of course there are a many other considerations.

If you cannot get on his turn circle before he can bring his nose around this particular method isn't going to work. If the bandit extends way out before flipping just show him your tail. Another classic mistake is to chase a high extending bandit. Never climb into a fight. Show him your tail. If he wants you make him come get you. The easiest way to equalize energy state is to make the bandit dive to your altitude and chase you. Once he is at your altitude it only takes a few seconds before all of his energy advantage is frittered away and you can reverse back into the fight on equal energy terms.

Awesome ...great advice, thanks Dawger

[humble]

Generically great advice to get yourself killed....

Like with everything the devil is in the details. Certainly it can be correct within a given set of variables but realistically it's not fundamentally correct on a number of points.

1) never assume the other pilot is stupid. A +E pilot will prosecute an E attack not a "B&Z" one, he's not going to just yank on the stick what he will do is exploit his advantage in the vertical in some fashion
2) He's turning to maintain visibility and to generate angles. Blindly going to where is was is stupid. Evaluate his moves based on relative E state and position. Some misperception of being in lag based on where we was and how his lift vector was oriented "X" seconds ago will get you killed. A good example of this is any form of a vertical attack from a plane using a superior roll rate vs a better turning plane. His initial move up and "away" creates a vertical reverse and flying to where he started the move just puts you in the sweet spot.
3) if your in a plane with less "total E" you will never gain parity in E state by flying away from a con...all you'll do is give him any angular gain you might have. There are a lot of reasons to offer your tail here but equalizing E state isn't one of them (unless you are in fact in a plane with a higher relative E potential).

Any time a plane goes vertical on you the single most important consideration is recognizing that he is now manipulating his lift vector much more efficiently and can mask changes more more effectively. He can go from an out of plane lag to an out of plane lead very quickly....worry about where he's going now...not where he was a few seconds ago and you'll live longer and have more fun.

[Bubbajj]

"3) if your in a plane with less "total E" you will never gain parity in E state by flying away from a con...all you'll do is give him any angular gain you might have."

could you clarify on this a bit. It has always been my practice to turn away and separate from an attacker with superior E and attempt to gain E or at least equalize states in hopes of drawing the battle down a bit to my level. Explain what else you might do and how it would be an advantage.

[humble]

You can't equalize E state if your -e at a lower altitude in a slower plane. Sure if your in a faster plane then you might me able to dive out and equalize or gain E. Lets look at one example, currently in the AvA the P-39D vs the A6M2. This is a very hard match up for the zeke driver since he's totally dependent on having an initial advantage. Both sides need to handle the scenario of a higher +E con differently. The P-39 drive in a neg E state needs to maximize angles early and then look to extend....in effect making the zeke take the long way around and then extending. So in this case the "run to equalize E state" tactic would be correct. However the worst thing the zeke can to is disengage to reset the fight. He needs to stay loosely engaged and work the fight up by fighting from the under position and using low G climbing turns as much as possible.

If your in a plane that can't gain equality in E state via disengagement then the only reason to dive out is if you feel you have a better chance in trying to setup an overshoot or a neg E reversal. The problem is that normally you simply end up exactly where you started. In my opinion the best option is to focus on relative lift vectors and work up into the fight while maintaining enough E to be fully capable in the verticals. This often involves a type of mirroring. You go down slightly as he goes up and up to meet his attacks. You get out of plane early so you can square the nose up and meet his verticals in plane with adequate E. Basically any time he's looking to roll over on you the objective is to get guns on. In fact if you can get him rattled and learn to work relative E state its actually possible to shoot the bogey off the perch this way.

This goes back to the overall concept of not abandoning an offensive option. If that option involves diving out to exploit superior capabilities great, but it's often more effective and practical to work on offensive -E posturing in the absense of any exploitable advantage. In effect sometimes it's about pilot stuff....

[DeltaFox]

Most HO's in this game are RAMS!  It takes two to HO.

Not very sporting and definitely not very realistic how it is done in real life as Aces High is to mimic real military ops.

I try to duck, but it does not always suffice.  Not when guys are dead set to ram, they just come at you in a duck, too!

Too bad, HiTech can't program that crap out.  Maybe killer robot drones to negate repeat offenders going around like that movie, "Blade Runner" and the inventor's janitor robots.

When I came to Aces High 3 or so years ago I was expecting military flight operations like it is done in the military.  Not quite as realistic as I would like to see.

The HO crap could be enforced, but you guys would lose half the membership!

This is the type of topic that constantly recycles in game and on the BBS. One of the original goals of "DFC" was/is to promote "old school" air combat which is a preference for a certain code of conduct that encourages 1 on 1 or small melee type combat vs a single player being ganged or a large group (normally known as a horde) overwhelming a very small group. This is a repost of an internal thread Vudak fired back up where some of the guys/gals were trying to formulate a statement that tries to put the HO in perspective...

If you have played Aces High for any length of time, you have probably heard someone complain about a “HO.”  In case you are confused by the term, these people are not simply being misogynistic.  Instead, they are complaining about someone pressing for a head-on attack.

A head-on attack occurs when two aircraft each have a firing solution on the other at the exact same time.  This differs from a front-quarter shot where one aircraft can fire towards the front of its opponent’s aircraft, but its opponent cannot return fire.  Though both are likely to cause a volatile reaction from your recently dispatched opponent, both can also be useful tools for your arsenal.  The trick is recognizing that a saw is not always the best hammer.  The aim of this document is to make you aware of the possible detriments of a head-on attack, so that you can make an informed decision as to whether or not to press for one in your future engagements.

Why do you often here that a "HO" is not a high % proposition. A couple of factors come into play.

A) The Numbers

First things first, let’s look at some numbers.  Many people claim a HO attack gives you a 50/50 chance of survival.  We think that is optimistic.  Every time you and an opponent line up for a head-on attack, one of the following outcomes is possible:

1.   You die.
2.   Your opponent dies.
3.   You both die.
4.   Neither dies.

That’s 50/50, right?  Well, that depends on your definition of “chance for survival.”  We tend to think of it in terms of surviving your entire sortie, and not just that one particular encounter.  That brings us to another possibility, and one that is constantly available, even if you “win” the HO and fly off alive:

5.   You take damage.

That damage could be to a vital control like a flap, elevator, or rudder.  It might be a leak of necessary liquids like oil, fuel, or radiator fluid.  While there’s a chance you’ll get away with only a few guns destroyed that you’ll want later, or perhaps several tiny bullet holes weakening your wing to the point where one more will rip it right off, there’s also a chance that you’ll suffer a pilot wound, and immediately begin to bleed out.

The bottom line is damage is bad.  Damage reduces your chance of survival.  You want to avoid damage when possible.  Deliberately placing your aircraft right in front of incoming gunfire (read: damage) is not usually in your best interest.  It is most certainly not a 50/50 chance of survival.

B) Tactical Considerations

By its very nature a "HO" freezes your nose on the enemy, very often this can create a significant disadvantage. The better your opponent the more likely he'll be to manipulate your shot attempt to his advantage. This can tend to lead to an increasing level of frustration and an escalation of a tendency to "HO" since you have less and less confidence in your ability to "dogfight". Dogfighting is a frustratingly hard aspect of air combat and takes time, practice and a firm understanding of ACM cause and effect. Most good dog fighters will tell you that the merge is the single most important aspect of the fight and that "locking the nose" on the enemy is about the worst thing you can do.

The flip side is that dogfighting offers the most fun and excitement in the game. By focusing on learning proper "merge tactics" you'll increase your longterm enjoyment and actually land more kills and have more fun while your still learning. It's important to understand that the merge is defined as the 1st time the two combatants cross paths. Once the planes have joined the fight many possibilities exist on both sides. Generally speaking the antagonists have two choices. Work for the 1st shot or try and retain enough energy to gain the upper hand. Very often the 2nd crossing or "re-merge" determines the course of the fight. If both players are aggressive and try and get around 1st then the plane that wins is much like the gunfighter that clears leather 1st...in effect he won the draw. That does not automatically win the fight since a hasty or poorly aimed shot wont finish the opponent. If one player is looking to keep as much E as possible then he needs to guard against and defend against a possible shot. This 3D chess match is the heart of the "dog fight" and provides countless opportunities and variations.

While players may mutually agree to a greater restriction in most brackets the initial merge is flown "guns cold" but any shot is fair game after that. As it relates to combat in the main arena's the simple reality is that once you learn to avoid an opponents "HO" and use his limited tactics to your advantage you'll not only be in a position to win more fights but also to defend a bad position and then "reset the fight" on more even terms. In just a few hours with a trainer or DFC member you can greatly increase both your skill level (specific to "dogfighting") and enjoyment of the game overall. Don't let others trap you into a "50/50" bet when you can learn to do much much better.

By circumstance I've got a film that highlights some of the realities nicely...
http://beachheadcrm.info/snaphook/The%20Joust.ahf

This is type of fight that constantly keeps me trying to find better ways to approach things. Here is a circumstance where I've worked my way back to "even" from being more or less bounced. I don't want to joust but if I break and evade I'm giving up what little E I have and creating an angles advantage for him in the vertical (you can see how aggressively he flew the cutbacks earlier in the fight). I'm really hoping to bluff him off me while getting everything I can by turning in the vertical vs "flat". In effect in my mind he's where I need to be going, end result is as pure a midfight "HO" as you can get since we literally run into each other.

One of the few times I've stepped up to the craps table in a 1 on 1 fight...."7 out line away"

[ink]

Most HO's in this game are RAMS!  It takes two to HO.

Not very sporting and definitely not very realistic how it is done in real life as Aces High is to mimic real military ops.

I try to duck, but it does not always suffice.  Not when guys are dead set to ram, they just come at you in a duck, too!

Too bad, HiTech can't program that crap out.  Maybe killer robot drones to negate repeat offenders going around like that movie, "Blade Runner" and the inventor's janitor robots.

When I came to Aces High 3 or so years ago I was expecting military flight operations like it is done in the military.  Not quite as realistic as I would like to see.

The HO crap could be enforced, but you guys would lose half the membership!

 

"real life"  seriously the HO was a very real tactic, but wait ahhhhh we play a game.....NOT real life.........so we dont have to worry about coming home, many here feel the HO is crap"tactics" for a game.
but if you want it more "realistic" well you better learn to HO.

and I highly doubt those that are trying to "Ram" you are really trying to ram you they just want there HO shot.

[Bubbajj]

Thanks snap, that makes perfect sense.

[CAP1]

How about when you find yourself at disadvantage and other guy has everything, better plane, more E, better position?  Sometimes, after reversal, your only chance to stay alive is to point your nose at the bandit and hope it'll be a cold pass. Of course, you have dweebs with all the advantage possible and they still HO.

What about one versus many? After prolonged fight you'll often find yourself in such a low E state you won't be able to avoid HO attempt. You'll have to fire or die.

you realize that the guy that posted the op is one that can take a tbm and outfly most of us in the plane of our choice, right? 

[CAP1]

i actually had an awesome fight against "imlitup" the other night. him f4f, me p38j. merge alt was 10k(about 7k agl). it lasted nearly 5 minutes i think. we both made mistakes, and we both had at least 3 passes each, that e could've ho'd the poop outta each other. the awesome thing, is that neither of us did....we both simply turned off slightly, passed by each other, and continued to attempt to gain an advantage.
 it had to have been somewhat frustrating for him, as i managed to position myself above him, and was able to use verticle against him. i got one good deflection shot, that smoked his engine, but then i stalled it at a bad time......lost some fairly important parts.
 i lost that fight, but at the same time, i won. why? because that single fight made the whole night worth tooling around avoiding getting ganged, ho'd, bnz;'d, etc.


 

[humble]

CAP

Bighorn is an exceptional stick, far beyond my measure in a pure dueling situation. My point at the time was trying to recognize the validity of the tactic historically while making the case that it reduces circumstances to a 50/50 equation.  By working to push the envelope and refusing to just take that 50/50 exchange you'll get better over time. Most of the time (but not always) there is a better option out there...

[humble]

Thanks snap, that makes perfect sense.

Glad it made sense to you...

[Blagard]

Very interesting thread.

I must admit I try to avoid HO. But as a very average pilot I will use it when my very limited skills run out of any other options.

Some aspects of AH I will never get used to, one being the lag and getting shot down in a turn when I can still see the top of the enemy fighter who is hitting me! I am not sure if this type of thing impacts on the way I fly, but there is no doubt there are limitations in any on-line game because of it.

I was watching a recent documentary on the Polish pilots of 303 squadron (RAF)  who flew hurricanes in the B. o. B.. Because they often did not have the height to "bounce" incoming bombers they did employ a HO attack which had the effect of breaking up the enemy formation. It was certainly something you needed a high level of skill to execute, with closing speeds of around 600 knots and avoiding a collision. I think even Shaws book on ACM gives a write up on an actual HO engagement by two fighters. So as a reminder to those who keep saying it didn't happen for real, you are wrong.

I will hopefully try even harder to avoid the HO now after reading some good points in the thread, but alas, I will rarely get the better of a better pilot who is above me, and often if he is below me as well!

[CAP1]

CAP

Bighorn is an exceptional stick, far beyond my measure in a pure dueling situation. My point at the time was trying to recognize the validity of the tactic historically while making the case that it reduces circumstances to a 50/50 equation.  By working to push the envelope and refusing to just take that 50/50 exchange you'll get better over time. Most of the time (but not always) there is a better option out there...

gotcha. i may have mis-understood his reply. i meant no offense to anyone.........but when i saw it, i remembered our fight where you handed my butt back to me. well.....our many many fights where you've handed my butt back to me. they were all fun, and all clean...some of the best i thinkn i've had. 

[2bighorn]

you realize that the guy that posted the op is one that can take a tbm and outfly most of us in the plane of our choice, right? 

I know his flying quite well, yes he's darn good. I was just describing various scenarios I've found myself in and in which head on shot might be justified.

gotcha. i may have mis-understood his reply.

Yes, you did 

[humble]

Let me try and rephrase things a bit.

As your skills improve you become less and less inclined to accept 50/50 odds because you feel you have an advantage somewhere...you just need to find it. However if you reach a point where circumstance has worn you down and your low, slow and on the deck or in a scenario where avoiding a frontal attack actually worsens your situation (evading would put 2 cons or the plane with the better pilot/capability in a rear quarter tracking shot) then there are times where that is your best option...

1) low speed

There a huge difference between 135 mph and 170 and a further huge gain at ~ 210 mph vs 170...so there is an advantage to squaring up and looking to establish right of way. If you don't have a workable minimal E state then "evading" does you no good

2) Multiple threats

If your in a 1 on 3 and you are getting caught maneuvering against a single con in front and 2 astern then its normally beneficial to get them all in a conga line....if possible the goal is to work a dueling reverse on the the single while forcing an overshoot on the trailers but the reality is normally you need to blow past the single and just get them in line astern. Once the 3 of them are jockeying over who's going to get the kill it's much more likely one of them will get killed.