Author Topic: Is Leadership dead?  (Read 7395 times)

Offline WMLute

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Re: Is Leadership dead?
« Reply #15 on: June 04, 2010, 08:13:16 AM »
To respond to your question posed:  When one side sits back and hoards up defensivly, who is the one not fighting?  From my perspective the Axis avoided fighting the Allies by adopting this tactic.

Kind of silly to sit back en mass waiting for an attack and then complain when your opponent decides to not take that fight and hits you somewhere else.

I would like to point out that many, if not all, of the tactics that were used by the Allies in this last Scenario were used by the Allies in Tunisia, which you were the Allied CO of.

In Tunisia you were obviously "in it to win it".
 
NOE hoards?  (check, you did that)
Sneak raids?  (check, you did that)
Avoiding fights? (check, you did that)
<I could go on>

Pot meet kettle.

The majority of your posts are just thinly (and some not so thin) veiled personal vendettas against Dantoo and BearKats, that for the life of me I don't understand and from my perspective not even reality based.  I have asked you in private (and public) to explain yourself.  You refused.

Reminds me of a story a squaddie has about you Frog.  The two of you agreed to fight 1 on 1 and went at it.  IIRC you were in the Tiffy and they were in a 109K.  He got an E advantage on you and was dancing on your head so you called in one of your squaddies to attack him.

When asked why you broke the 1 on 1 agreement your reply was basically; "you were not fighting the way I wanted you to".
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Offline TequilaChaser

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Re: Is Leadership dead?
« Reply #16 on: June 04, 2010, 09:47:31 AM »
Seriously now.......



regarding the last Scenario, both sides had fun, although it might not been at the same time in the same frames.......

also, both sides while having fun, were also going for the points ( win )

after all was said and done, the CM posted the allied was the overall winner......

both sides skirted with the original write-up of the Scenario & the rules imposed

Guppy says it best in the quote below:

Just my opinion, and purely based on scenario experience.

The priority of the COs, XOs and GLs first and foremost needs to be on providing the best possible experience for the players on both teams.

The second the priority becomes more on scores and 'winning', everyone loses

The beauty of a scenario is it offers the opportunity to combine the history so many of us crave and the teamwork that can come from flying the operations that scenarios provide that are so different from the MA.

That doesn't mean that it shouldn't be competitive, but too often folks get lost in trying to 'game' the scenario rules and forget that it's about the actual scenario experience not the points.

The greatest thing AH has to offer is that moment in a scenario where you get lost in the radio chatter, the sight of all those planes, and when you get sucked into the 'cockpit' and it feels as real as it can in a computer game.

One of the moments I was proudest of, during DGS was when there was a time where we could have raised some question about something the other side did, and it may have impacted the 'points'.  To a man the CO, XO and GLs all said, forget it.  We'd had fun and enjoyed the event, and it didn't matter beyond that.

is time to move on and get ready for the next Scenario  :cheers:
« Last Edit: June 04, 2010, 10:14:59 AM by TequilaChaser »
"When one considers just what they should say to a new pilot who is logging in Aces High, the mind becomes confused in the complex maze of info it is necessary for the new player to know. All of it is important; most of it vital; and all of it just too much for one brain to absorb in 1-2 lessons" TC

Offline 4440

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Re: Is Leadership dead?
« Reply #17 on: June 04, 2010, 10:04:58 AM »
TFB was my first experience as CO. I enjoyed the experience immensely. Would do it again in a heartbeat.

What I found, especially when the going got rough, several of my GL's finally stepped up to the plate. I got the responses I had hoped for and asked for from the very onset of the scenario. I even had some of the FL's throw their weight into it. All in All I was very pleased with my staff.

I agree with points made on boths sides of this discussion, which by the way I hope remains civil, because a discussion on this subject is needed.

Since this is a game, yet it contains a good degree of "realism", you have at least to types of participants:
1. Those who are their for the fight and to have fun, and
2. Those who are their to win and stick it to the other side.

That being said, the command staff has to juggle those 2 mindsets in order to maintain a solid turnout through out all the frames and be able to sufficiently satisfy both.

When I got the nod to CO in TFB, my first duty was to fill my staff. After finding out I was to take on the duties as Axis CO, I looked first at the Squads that I knew where into the german iron. Keep in mind here that other than being a Race CM, I am a relatively unknown player in this community, this makes it even more difficult to recruit people as in their minds they have no real reference as to your own personality.

I also used previous scenario experiences with some of these guys as to how they dealt with orders, being on the losing end of the stick, and how they conducted themselves on the boards after acheiving a big win or suffering defeat, especially if that defeat was based on questionable terms.

As far as I am concerned, I ended up with a good staff. I learned alot from these guys that I can carry into a future attempt at this. I made some fatal mistakes at points which cost us some serious ground. The biggest of those was not using certain squads to their full potential. Even though I did that, and by george they let me hear about by frame 4, their leadership managed to stem a mutiny and ended up shining in the final frame.


In closing on this, one thing I do really agree with Lute on is the Pre-Scenario "reading" of the writeup. The designer needs to be actively involved with both CO's in explaining the design and the reasoning of certain restrictions. The writeups can be vague which leaves alot of wiggle room to take advantage of things. I'm sure if they really wanted they could write bullet proof rules, but then the design becomes overly restrictive. It's true, Myself and my staff had an entirely different interpretation of what was meant of the design vs. the Allied perception. This in turn is what created the atmospheres of how the orders were percieved.


Offline Vudu15

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Re: Is Leadership dead?
« Reply #18 on: June 04, 2010, 10:21:42 AM »
Well here comes the shot from the low man on the totem pole.... Lute, you wonderd why I was always causing some problem when I was flying under your southern command? this post covers the reason perfectly. Plain and simple "In it to win it".... I think this is the first SEC where I even found out who won. Ive never cared who won or who will win. Out of the 5 SECs Ive flown in this one just...*sigh*...ridiculous I hung with my role for 3 frames and hated it the whole time switch planes in frame 4 and had the most fun out of the whole SEC (TFB). And the leadership is what really got to me the whole time.
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Offline TequilaChaser

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Re: Is Leadership dead?
« Reply #19 on: June 04, 2010, 10:43:10 AM »
Well here comes the shot from the low man on the totem pole.... Lute, you wonderd why I was always causing some problem when I was flying under your southern command? this post covers the reason perfectly. Plain and simple "In it to win it".... I think this is the first SEC where I even found out who won. Ive never cared who won or who will win. Out of the 5 SECs Ive flown in this one just...*sigh*...ridiculous I hung with my role for 3 frames and hated it the whole time switch planes in frame 4 and had the most fun out of the whole SEC (TFB). And the leadership is what really got to me the whole time.

Vudu,
I assume you are a decent person, but for someone who didn't follow the orders given to them, and to go off on your own accord and do your own thing, so you could "get some kills" persay in the TFB scenario........ you really should not have posted the above message....

btw this is a Scenario.. not a SEC

as for leadership getting to you? you have to learn to follow your leader, FL/GL etc......not do your own thing....... it is a TEAM EFFORT, sir.......

Quote
Plain and simple "In it to win it"....

yep, for yourself personally maybe.....

a refresher link for you Vudu15, Sir:

http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,284124.msg3629178.html#msg3629178


I just realized this was dejavu ..........
« Last Edit: June 04, 2010, 10:51:44 AM by TequilaChaser »
"When one considers just what they should say to a new pilot who is logging in Aces High, the mind becomes confused in the complex maze of info it is necessary for the new player to know. All of it is important; most of it vital; and all of it just too much for one brain to absorb in 1-2 lessons" TC

Offline Vudu15

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Re: Is Leadership dead?
« Reply #20 on: June 04, 2010, 12:44:47 PM »
Well sir I thought long and hard about posting in here and thought you know what....screw it. My bad for the SEC/SECnario mix up....Number two your darn right i dint follow orders a couple times, because they were down right silly plain and simple. The spit16s were used for goofy missions like oh idk bomber escort in beta and frame1 sent to alts we couldn't operate at and also bingo fuel, frame 3 Lute had us attack a surface fleet and after wed been shot down once you informed us we needed more ords than we could hope to place on them to kill any of the vessels. Lute sent us to point farm at an undefended field while an entire Mossie group got decimated down low only 25-50 miles away from our position just the type of fight we excelled at, afterwards when I made an issue about it no one seemed to have a big deal with it. Because they made "more points than they lost" and went beyond expectations with their NOE raid. You informed us of rules after the fact, and generally had us doing things that made no sense. enemy cons make the field flash and were told to run....fly patrol over the coast that has an enemy city on it so were being hit with puffy ack the whole time...multiple reports of enemy planes landing and refueling at a base a grid away what did we do?......hit the undefended field again. And during all of this where were you roaming the country side doing who knows what. which is fine, tell ya what fly around for three hours then get shot down by puffy ack, and tell me if ya had a good time....oh added bonus theirs no way youll sink the boat if you even do hit it. Let me know how it goes.   Oh and Tequila.... nvm I flew under SubwayCH had none of these problems during Red Steel jumped into TFB and its like WTH happened....
Oh but I forgot Tequila Im crazy and you were right their flying with us........ and when you have to listen to Captains and LTs who send you on silly missions all day at work then come back and hear more orders that make no sense on the game you want to play and have fun playing well thats just too much sir and I wont stand by quietly anymore. And thats that sir.

Vudu15
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Offline gyrene81

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Re: Is Leadership dead?
« Reply #21 on: June 04, 2010, 01:19:45 PM »
I kinda did the same thing Vudu did...on the Axis side. Especially in frame 2 and 3. Taking drop tanks on 190D-9s and chasing squirrels all over the map, was nothing more than a waste of time. And the D-9s couldn't compete over 30k, they wallowed like fish out of water.

I didn't agree with the strategic orders, or the roles that were assigned to some of the squads, too much emphasis on the 234s and not on stopping the Allied attacks before they could get into place...but since I wasn't in charge and points were the name of the game...I kept my mouth shut and did what I could with what I had to work with.
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Offline Spikes

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Re: Is Leadership dead?
« Reply #22 on: June 04, 2010, 02:22:19 PM »
I didn't agree with the strategic orders, or the roles that were assigned to some of the squads, too much emphasis on the 234s and not on stopping the Allied attacks before they could get into place...but since I wasn't in charge and points were the name of the game...I kept my mouth shut and did what I could with what I had to work with.
Really man? Only in meetings did we talk about the 234s, since it was our only source of offensive points...there were many questions to be had and asked. Aside from that I was pretty much on my own as to how I wanted to run my show and get it done. Kermit and I spent an entire night planning and gathering times, loadouts, etc. on one of the frames, since he was paired with me most of the scenario. My biggest enemy was not the opposing side, but the computer problems and white screens. IMO 4440 did a damn good job as a first time CO and really took into consideration everyone's opinion and request. Face it, you can't have it all. You should have spoken up, because it would have been heard.

I focused on my role and chimed in when I thought needed necessary during meetings about the rest of the fighters.
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Offline gyrene81

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Re: Is Leadership dead?
« Reply #23 on: June 04, 2010, 02:52:13 PM »
Really man? Only in meetings did we talk about the 234s, since it was our only source of offensive points...there were many questions to be had and asked. Aside from that I was pretty much on my own as to how I wanted to run my show and get it done. Kermit and I spent an entire night planning and gathering times, loadouts, etc. on one of the frames, since he was paired with me most of the scenario. My biggest enemy was not the opposing side, but the computer problems and white screens. IMO 4440 did a damn good job as a first time CO and really took into consideration everyone's opinion and request. Face it, you can't have it all. You should have spoken up, because it would have been heard.

I focused on my role and chimed in when I thought needed necessary during meetings about the rest of the fighters.
Yeah I agree 4440 did a very good job and I would fly under him again. I'm certain he learned a lot from the experience of the last scenario.

I didn't agree with the defensive tactics and did voice my concerns in the first meetings.
I didn't agree with the 190D-9s and A-8s not being set loose to attack the Allied bases in the South for the first frame and voiced that.
I didn't agree with the use of the 190A-8s as strike aircraft only and voiced that.
I didn't agree with the use of the 109G-14s as escorts for the attack fighters and voice that as well.

We had the capacity to do a lot of damage in frame 1 and force the Allies to do exactly what we ended up doing, wonder where they were going to target and how in the next frame.
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Offline 4440

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Re: Is Leadership dead?
« Reply #24 on: June 04, 2010, 03:16:00 PM »
I admit I got wrapped up in the points, and also due the fact that I am a bomber junky I will freely admit and did throughout I know little of our fighters pros and cons.

what happened towards the end, The GL's started getting really vocals as to what you all wanted to see your squad do. That was coupled with the fact we threw the points factor out the window in the 4th frame. Without the full breakdown given to us, IE frame by Frame, I think the 4th frame was ultimately our best, and that wasn't due to my planning,  that was thanks to good info from the GL's. Quite frankly I didn't offer much in the way of battle plans for frame 4, I just glued together what the GL's requested.

Like I said earlier, I let several squads end up flapping around in the wind and didn't utilize their strengths properly. Given the chance to do it again (famous last words :o ) I would do things somewhat differently.

Offline Spikes

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Re: Is Leadership dead?
« Reply #25 on: June 04, 2010, 03:47:11 PM »
Yeah I agree 4440 did a very good job and I would fly under him again. I'm certain he learned a lot from the experience of the last scenario.

I didn't agree with the defensive tactics and did voice my concerns in the first meetings.
I didn't agree with the 190D-9s and A-8s not being set loose to attack the Allied bases in the South for the first frame and voiced that.
I didn't agree with the use of the 190A-8s as strike aircraft only and voiced that.
I didn't agree with the use of the 109G-14s as escorts for the attack fighters and voice that as well.

We had the capacity to do a lot of damage in frame 1 and force the Allies to do exactly what we ended up doing, wonder where they were going to target and how in the next frame.
I guess I don't know as much as others do since like said, I was kind of out on a limb with the bomber aspect. I personally had to agree with the 109s 'escorting' us 234s in, because we couldn't devote our only 6 262s to escort duty. Props and Jets don't really mix too well.
I had to live with the fact that I probably wouldn't be escorted in first strike. So we designed the northern/attack runs based around the 234s. If we made our run and got back, the props would be in the heat of battle when we made our second strike. The idea was also brought up holding the bombers and letting the props find the CV, but that got shot down, and I ended up going up solo and looking. It was the better idea as I didn't have to worry about myself + 7 other formations of 234s behind me if we got spotted.

When all is said and done, yes things could have been done better. It would have been nice if we didn't have to attack anything, but got bonus points for knocking down lancs (etc). This would have provided a role for the 234s as scouting as well. It also would have forced the allies to protect their lancs more instead of sending them in NOE un escorted.
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Offline fudgums

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Re: Is Leadership dead?
« Reply #26 on: June 04, 2010, 04:06:19 PM »
I think we are all antsy and ready to fight in the next one  :t
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Offline WMLute

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Re: Is Leadership dead?
« Reply #27 on: June 04, 2010, 04:42:03 PM »
Bear in mind Spikes that only 2 lancs went NOE unescorted for Frames 1-3.

We had 2 guys tasked with that role and the vast majority of our lancasters were escorted by Ponies for every run in all the frames.  Frame 4 ya'll came at us with such force that we ended up stripping the Ponies from escort duty just to keep us from getting swept off the map.

I understand why players think we did "mostly" NOE runs as the two people we had doing that were very, very successful and racked up a ton o' points, but the plain truth is we ran our buffs at alt and w/ escorts.

Good stuff here people, keep it coming.  It is threads like this that will help the next Leadership group learn what pitfalls to avoid.
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Offline 4440

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Re: Is Leadership dead?
« Reply #28 on: June 04, 2010, 07:20:39 PM »
While this thread really isn't about who did what in the last one, it is about what someone should expect from a leader.

My guys expected me to work with my command staff, give them a set of orders (like them or not), communicate, and stick with the program. They also expect me to own up to my mistakes, learn from them, and not repeat them. They also expected me to act with integrity and honor, win or lose. I believe and hope I did most of that, as I expected the same from my GL's, which they did. I know dang well they were not happy with some of my decisions, but they stuck with me till the end. THAT is devotion and leadership at the level they signed on for.

I myself have sincerely disliked decisions made by CO's in the past, yet I "signed" the dotted line to do what they requested. Even though their was dissapointment, I still fully respect many of them for the hard calls they made.

Offline 4440

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Re: Is Leadership dead?
« Reply #29 on: June 04, 2010, 07:23:37 PM »
Also, there are a lot of leaders out there. Some do not know it yet, others cannot fully commit due to other obligations, which in itself is a sign of leadership. Now no offense Fud, you were #3 on my list, but my other 2 had RL things to contend with and could not commit. I quite frankly was real close to not being able to fulfill my obligations due to the issues the game itself was causing.