Brewster Buffalo dive speed and handling

[Ardy123]

I should conduct more tests but often in the MA it feels like brewsters dive a bit too well and hold their e much longer than I would expect (compared to the I-16). Sadly all I have is anicdotal information, "pilot A says a f4f could out dive a brewster", etc..

main question...

Unlike the P51 or Me 109s or many of the more 'famous' planes of WW2, there doesn't appear to be much information on the filght characteristics of the finish version of the arplane. furthermore, there are almost no finish Buffalows in exsistance today. What sources have people found?

[STEELE]

Brewster sure does seem to beat the heck out of even FM2 in turn rate & radius, acceleration seems quite a bit better, too.  Verdict: Clown Wagon

[AWwrgwy]

Unlike the P51 or Me 109s or many of the more 'famous' planes of WW2, there doesn't appear to be much information on the filght characteristics of the finish version of the arplane. furthermore, there are almost no finish Buffalows in exsistance today. What sources have people found?

IIRC much of the info for modeling the Brewster came from actual, real-life Finns who play AH2.

 


wrongway

[dtango]

...in the MA it feels like brewsters dive a bit too well and hold their e much longer than I would expect (compared to the I-16).

And you know this basis what analysis?  

"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data.  Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit the theories, instead of theories to suit facts." (Sherlock Holmes)

Looking for some real Brewster data and not pilot anecdotes?  For starters here's some.  Go knock yourself out .

7 NACA Reports:
Power-on wind tunnel test F2A 1/8-scale model
Power-on longitudinal-stability and control tests F2A 1/8-scale model
Power-off wind tunnel test F2A 1/8-scale model
Additional power-on wind-tunnel test F2A 1/8-scale model
F2A-2 compressibility flight test data
F2A-2 lateral control flight test data
Calculated and measured turning peformance of F2A-3 including flaps

Here is the NTRS search results for the above:
http://ntrs.nasa.gov/search.jsp?N=0&Ntk=all&Ntx=mode%20matchall&Ntt=f2a


Additionally:

NACA F2A-2 flight tests with various flap configs:
http://hdl.handle.net/2060/19930092639

NACA Drag Analysis which includes tests and data on the XF2A-1:
http://hdl.handle.net/2060/19930092657
http://hdl.handle.net/2060/19760019077

Tango
412th FS Braunco Mustangs

[RTHolmes]

Midway commander realises they're under attack.
CO: What have we got?
XO: We can put up half a dozen F4Fs and 15 Brewsters.
CO: Damned relics!

[gyrene81]

Nice find there dtango, problem is those wind tunnel tests showed the Brewster to be better than it turned out to be in combat. They also don't show that the "export" model B-239 sold to Finland were F2A-1s stripped of all extraneous equipment including armor, which lightened them up considerably compared to thier U.S. Navy/Marines counterparts and they weren't tested under combat conditions until the Finns got them. The overall combat service record for the Buffalo was bad, especially against the Japanese Ki-43 and A6M, against antique Russian aircraft it turned out much better.

Ardy, if you want a close appoximation of the B-239 performance, just look up the F2A-1 with the Wright Cyclone R-1820-34 (940hp) or R-1820-G5 (950hp), I've found both mentioned. Oddly, some references claim the Finnish Buffalo produced 1000hp with the R-1820-G5 engine. Finnish ingenuity?

There is some interesting information (for what it's worth) here:
http://www.warbirdforum.com/buff.htm


Good luck.

[dtango]

Nice find there dtango, problem is those wind tunnel tests showed the Brewster to be better than it turned out to be in combat.

*Sigh*.  And you know this how?

Tango
412th FS Braunco Mustangs

[gyrene81]

*Sigh*.  And you know this how?

Tango
412th FS Braunco Mustangs

Well, ok that was my assessment after lots of hairy eyeball reading because I object to having the Finnish B-239 substituted for F2A-1/2s in PTO special event setups. Specifically the 1941 1/8 scale tests didn't account for weight differences and modifications in post production aircraft...armor plate, self sealing fuel tanks, radio equipment, added weapons/ammo, propeller types, etc...

[JunkyII]

Fact is the Brewster is easy mode in the MA, greats guns, holds E , turns great, and dives well......eny should be alot lower(close to the hurri 2c)

[AWwrgwy]

Fact is the Brewster is easy mode in the MA, greats guns, holds E , turns great, and dives well......eny should be alot lower(close to the hurri 2c)

...slow.  Can't get out of it's own way....

Sure it turns about like a Zero or Hurricane but you are hard pressed to land anything you don't kill right over your own base because you get run down by almost, if not all, other aircraft in the arena.

All a smart pilot has to do to kill a Brew is extend, climb, reverse, repeat.  Don't try and fight to it's strength's, round and round, and it's an easy kill.


wrongway

[Karnak]

Well, ok that was my assessment after lots of hairy eyeball reading because I object to having the Finnish B-239 substituted for F2A-1/2s in PTO special event setups. Specifically the 1941 1/8 scale tests didn't account for weight differences and modifications in post production aircraft...armor plate, self sealing fuel tanks, radio equipment, added weapons/ammo, propeller types, etc...

This.

Giving the Allies the B-239 in Pac scenarios isn't very fair to the Japanese as it gives the Allies a fighter that can turn with the A6M when there shouldn't be an Allied fighter there that can turn with the A6M.

[JunkyII]

...slow.  Can't get out of it's own way....

Sure it turns about like a Zero or Hurricane but you are hard pressed to land anything you don't kill right over your own base because you get run down by almost, if not all, other aircraft in the arena.

All a smart pilot has to do to kill a Brew is extend, climb, reverse, repeat.  Don't try and fight to it's strength's, round and round, and it's an easy kill.


wrongway

Yea extending is easy, but if someone brings one to a bnz fight it can do just that....better then F4Us....

[humble]

If you lose to a zeke in an brew its on you. The later model zeke will Easily handle the brewster in an E fight and the early one has the edge in angles and is marginally double superior. The big issue here is that very few folks who fly the zeke are used to being put in a position where they have to fly an E attack vs an angles attack. The reality is that the Brewster and the Hawk75 were both excellent planes for their time. At Midway they were outnumbered, tactically at a disadvantage and facing very seasoned pilots. Floyd Parks put his best pilots in the few F4F's he had, The records I've seen credit the F2A-3's with 5 kills and 2 probables spread over 4 pilots, 3 of which were USMC. Overall VMF-221 went into action with 11 pilots USMC and 14 officially rostered as USMCR. My inference is that the unit was simply the best available and not truly combat capable in the sense that it was not fully "up to speed". This mirrors the issues with the P-39s that literally had to be assembled in Australia by there crews and then flown into combat in Port Moresby. Compare the results the French and Finns got with the Hawk75/Brewster and the Russians with the P-39 and you get a feel for what effect training, familiarization and pilot selection play in air combat results...nothing at all wrong with the Brew IMO....exactly what it should be...

[gyrene81]

Granted Humble the A6M2 shouldn't have much trouble with the B-239 but something about the way it's modeled in AH, if that is how the thing performed in real life, they should have sent the Finns to the PTO against the Japs. The kill/loss record for the F2A-3s at Midway was 17 went up and 5 returned. The kills credited were mostly bombers with a couple of possible Zekes. If the B-239 in AH had the same flight characteristics as the F2A-3 nobody would be complaining about it in special event setups since it was the heaviest and least maneuverable of the Buffaloes. Flight tests and pilot testimony show the F2A-2 was the most maneuverable version the U.S. flew but was considered slow for its time, and even it only had a 950hp engine. My understanding is the B-239 in AH is the F2A-1, lightened up by a couple of hundred pounds and equipped with a 1000hp engine. The U.S. Navy F2A-1 only had a 940hp engine.

There is just something hinky about it. If the A6M2 and early 109s have faster level speeds and can climb faster there should be no reason a Brewster should be able to stay on either one that is climbing out, but they do it often.

[Ack-Ack]

Fact is the Brewster is easy mode in the MA, greats guns, holds E , turns great, and dives well......eny should be alot lower(close to the hurri 2c)

Gee...it seems like every plane in the planeset is "easy mode" for you.  Hubris?


ack-ack