I SAY....PERK THE BIG BOMBERS!

[Lusche]

well the tiger is perked and thats a MW tank, and as we know perk has more to do with gameplay balance than performance,

Eeexactly. And our free heavy bombers are not unbalancing the gameplay at all.

And the gap-filling medium bombers you mentioned (He 111, Do 17) are all slow, low, underarmed, vulnerable and most of them lack punch. It's not particularly difficult to kill Lancs & B17s  in out typical late war ride. My point still stands: It's just like perking all fighters better than a P-40. I'm serious: If you want to limit heavy bomber use by perks "just because", you have to do that with fighters too.

And yes, the Boston IS a horrible performer for LW standards, because a Boston pilot can only hope he's not encountering any fighters. It's not fast enough to run from anything faster than a I-16 or Hurri I, has almost no defensive gunfire and a very short range.

I wonder what % of damage/sorties etc is done by the 3 heavies (esp the lanc) vs the medium bombers?

Jabos like F4U-d, 47, and particularly the 110G are probably responsible for much more damage than all heavy buffs combined.

[Lusche]

.

[grumpy37]

The ONLY reason I say perk the heavy bombers is to keep the "gamers" from using them as dive bombers or in ways they were not historically intended to be used in real life.  I know "gamers" always find a way around it but they would run out of perk eventually.  Or like someone else said already, sorry to many to look back at, make it so planes with bomb sites can only drop bombs from the bomber position. 

[KingRat]

I'd have no problem making the bombsight equipped planes able to drop only from bombardier position.   

The funny thing about the arguments against dive-bombing heavies is that it's really a gv-er complaint.  How many fighter guys hate seeing 4-engine bomber formations on the deck...I see that and I think 'Merry Christmas to me' not 'oh no I hate to see that'.    You can't perk planes just because they aren't used right or every plane in the game would have to be perked, as well as all the flaks that kill towns etc.

[EskimoJoe]

Throughout this whole thread, I'm still wondering how this is relevant to the new NOE settings...

[RTHolmes]

Eeexactly. And our free heavy bombers are not unbalancing the gameplay at all.

I'd love to see one of your pie charts on this but I realise its not possible in the same way as fighter usage. in terms of balance all I mean is that the big 3 must do 90% of all buff damage in the MAs, if that was fighters they would be perked. I imagine the effect of no perked fighters would be similar (eg. 262/Temp/C-hogs getting 90% of all fighter kills).

And yes, the Boston IS a horrible performer for LW standards, because a Boston pilot can only hope he's not encountering any fighters. It's not fast enough to run from anything faster than a I-16 or Hurri I, has almost no defensive gunfire and a very short range.

got to disagree here, I fly them alot and find them more survivable than anything else, purely due to speed. see a co-alt fighter and put them into a 1000fpm dive at full power and it takes sectors for the fighter to catch up, at which point you still have a very maneuverable buff for limited evasion.

Jabos like F4U-d, 47, and particularly the 110G are probably responsible for much more damage than all heavy buffs combined

this is certainly true, but then the jabos are not using typical historical loadouts. 1000lb bombs feels kinda gamey to me, I only take them for anti-shipping sorties (which seems like a fair enough riposte to the ahistorical puffy ack and fleets parked 2 miles offshore.) even in jugs I generally take 3x500lb because that was the standard RAF loadout.

[Bronk]

Jabos like F4U-d, 47, and particularly the 110G are probably responsible for much more damage than all heavy buffs combined.

PERK ORDS!!!!

[TW9]

I dont think they should be perked but i do wish that if the ones with formation's enabled flew say under 3000 ft for more than a set amount of time that would lose their drones.

[HawkerMKII]

PERK ORDS!!!!

Again; Perk everything, give newbies 500 perk points across the board to start..... NOT!!!!!!

[Bronk]

I dont think they should be perked but i do wish that if the ones with formation's enabled flew say under 3000 ft for more than a set amount of time that would lose their drones.

1k bombs for fighters should be perked.
Buffs another subject.

[Acidrain]

yeah. get below 10k and see how long that bomber group lasts

and reschke is right. these CVs arent meant for base dueling. They are utilized best out to sea at 15 to 20 miles. Use a mission sortie to hit the field and do not supply the enemy with a radar stream TO the CV where they can see where you upped from. there you go. you got the best CV tactic of the game in the length of 3 sentences. you need more info on how to CV?

321BAR , if it makes you feel better to sidestep the reality of what happens in AH by listing possible tactics(that in the context of AH almost never happen mind you) have at it but the reality is that no matter where a CV is on the map heavy bombers are a far too effective tool for sinking it.If you are claiming that <10k bombers dont routinely sink CV's in AH then i must be playing a different version because my sqauddie makes a living out of doing it.

[Jayhawk]

I dont think they should be perked but i do wish that if the ones with formation's enabled flew say under 3000 ft for more than a set amount of time that would lose their drones.

It would have to be quite a while, and people would work around it.  Fly at 3100 feet then dive down, do your bombing and pop back up.  I wouldn't think it would have that much effect.  Anyway, bombers below 3000 are usually dead meat anyway.

[Lusche]

I'd love to see one of your pie charts on this but I realise its not possible in the same way as fighter usage. in terms of balance all I mean is that the big 3 must do 90% of all buff damage in the MAs, if that was fighters they would be perked. I imagine the effect of no perked fighters would be similar (eg. 262/Temp/C-hogs getting 90% of all fighter kills).

There are not that many buffs to choose from as we do have fighters. And buffs are competing with / fighting against those. You can't just take an isolated look at them. The bomber has to get to the  target & back, and it's 190A8's, Ponies, N1K, Typhoons that are hunting him.



We have the big three: B-17, B-24-Lancaster

Only one really capable medium bomber: The B-26

Four more medium bombers, that have many drawbacks in LW, even the very fast and quick climbing Ki-67 has the problem of having a light payload. Flying a heavy 110 is often much more effective than a Ki-67 flown correctly to it's strenghts

And finally the perked Ar 234.


Again, heavy bombers are not unbalancing. If you just perk them if it's too dam many of them compared to the B-25C or Boston, you have to perk the P-51D, N1K, Spit 16 too, because it's too dam many of them compared to the 109F4 and other "light" birds. Or look at the CV segment: Almost everything that's rolling from a  CV deck with bombs is a F4U-D or F6F. Perk them too, let players earn their right to fly those by flying TBM's & SBD's


If you just want to encourge more diversity, you will have to find another approach. One that is fair to all sides.

[uptown]

If i've said it once, i've said it a hundred times. The problem is not with the bombers themselves, but with the ord bunkers that are left up at the enemy fields. How hard is it to take out 4 ord bunkers?! Hit supplys at the back bases and they won't get the front lines supplied. The game is setup in a way that you can effectively take bombers out of play without the need to perk anything. 2 loaded 51s can takes out bomber hangers and 3 can get hangers and ord.
But you never see that happening. Instead, guys just climb to 15k over their own field waiting for the emeny to come to them. All one has to do is watch the map to see what is unfolding. If the bad guys hit your VH and ords...guess what, GVs are coming. If they're hitting dar and fighter hangers...planes are coming.
Some folks expect HTC to reconfigure the game because they're not wise enough to think for themselves. "oh the enemy is bombing us. HTC needs to perk the bombers and ord"  No, you need to go blow up the bad guys ord or take their hangers out. You don't need 7 guys hanging out over your own field waiting for a couple of 47s to come in to do what you should be doing at their field.
Last night for instance, I watch the map for almost 2 hours as 1 set of B17s hit every radar tower on our front lines. He must have gotten a dozen before i caught up to him. By then he was at almost 40K. Not 1 person on my side, in that area at the time even attempted to go after the bombers.
There is nothing wrong with the way the game is laid out. But if you want to play the "win the war" thing, then use the tools HTC has given you, instead of asking for the bad guys to be handicapped with perked ords, planes and whatever else you can come up with.

[Kev367th]

321BAR , if it makes you feel better to sidestep the reality of what happens in AH by listing possible tactics(that in the context of AH almost never happen mind you) have at it but the reality is that no matter where a CV is on the map heavy bombers are a far too effective tool for sinking it.If you are claiming that <10k bombers dont routinely sink CV's in AH then i must be playing a different version because my sqauddie makes a living out of doing it.

True, with clarification!

I routinely sank CVs from 8k as I knew how much to lead them by at that alt. Alone, not with help.
The only 'trick' to it was not to come in over the stream of aircraft going from the CV to the airfield.
Anywhere from approx 100 to 180 degrees to the stream almost guarenteed you a clear run in.
180 degrees was best as it limits the number of 5" guns that can train on you.
Its all very well blaming the buff drivers but the guys upping off the CV play a large part in its demise.
You leave a clear run in its gonna get sunk, a cap would go a long way to stop it, but no-one wants to do that. Do they.

[edit] should add - plenty would chase you once the CV had been sunk just to get that last kill before they in their turn died.