Author Topic: Brewster vs. P-38 Zoom test  (Read 8072 times)

Offline BnZs

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Re: Brewster vs. P-38 Zoom test
« Reply #75 on: July 19, 2010, 06:23:36 PM »
What ever your in-game test weight is per the E6B divided by 1000 HP MSL.  You'd have to interpolate for higher altitudes until you got to 16000 feet, then again above. 

The thing is, I don't know what engine HP is used in the game. Sources list several possibilities.
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Offline Wmaker

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Re: Brewster vs. P-38 Zoom test
« Reply #76 on: July 19, 2010, 06:25:54 PM »
The thing is, I don't know what engine HP is used in the game. Sources list several possibilities.

As I said, the FTHs pretty much prove it has 1000hp. The MAP gauge shows 950hp-setting figures due to the fact that the MAP for 1000hp setting isn't listed anywhere in the original docs.
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Offline BnZs

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Re: Brewster vs. P-38 Zoom test
« Reply #77 on: July 19, 2010, 06:30:55 PM »
I get .19 HP per pound at 50% fuel for the Brewster.

BUT, I get .20 HP per pound at 50% for the A6M5b, IF the specification of 1130 hp for its powerplant is correct.



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Offline Wmaker

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Re: Brewster vs. P-38 Zoom test
« Reply #78 on: July 19, 2010, 07:03:11 PM »
I get .19 HP per pound at 50% fuel for the Brewster.

BUT, I get .20 HP per pound at 50% for the A6M5b, IF the specification of 1130 hp for its powerplant is correct.

Looking at the climb chart, Zeke's sea level power output starts dropping right from the sea level while Brewster's output remains constant to 3k where it starts dropping sharply. With 50% fuel, the power loadings at sea level are already within 5% of each other.

If you want you can integrate the average power loading from the slopes on the climbrate charts using your power loading figures with enough accuracy. Considering all of the above, especially if you did your tests using 50% fuel I don't see anything surprising in them.
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Offline BnZs

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Re: Brewster vs. P-38 Zoom test
« Reply #79 on: July 19, 2010, 07:18:25 PM »
Okay then...things are looking better for the Brewski!
"Crikey, sir. I'm looking forward to today. Up diddly up, down diddly down, whoops, poop, twiddly dee - decent scrap with the fiendish Red Baron - bit of a jolly old crash landing behind enemy lines - capture, torture, escape, and then back home in time for tea and medals."

Offline Wmaker

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Re: Brewster vs. P-38 Zoom test
« Reply #80 on: July 19, 2010, 07:27:04 PM »
Okay then...things are looking better for the Brewski!

That default climb chart can be deceptive due to the fact that Brewster carried quite a bit of fuel (~420kg) for a small/light fighter. That makes the power loading improve quite nicely as the fuel is consumed compared to the planes like the FM-2. Probably most of my sorties are flown with 50% fuel.
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Offline ink

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Re: Brewster vs. P-38 Zoom test
« Reply #81 on: July 19, 2010, 07:28:57 PM »
all this talk of the brewster.....guess I am gonna go fly one :D

Offline dtango

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Re: Brewster vs. P-38 Zoom test
« Reply #82 on: July 19, 2010, 07:31:12 PM »
Guys guys, you're still tossing about figures of merit like "power-to-weight" ratio to make conclusions about zoom climb.  It's erroneous to do so.

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Offline Wmaker

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Re: Brewster vs. P-38 Zoom test
« Reply #83 on: July 19, 2010, 07:40:01 PM »
Guys guys, you're still tossing about figures of merit like "power-to-weight" ratio to make conclusions about zoom climb.  It's erroneous to do so.

True enough I guess.

My main point was that at smaller fuel loads Brewster's power loading is closer to the Zeke's than one might imagine just by looking at the default climb charts. That's all. :)

Here's what I said about the power loadings couple posts ago:

Well I don't see how it could settle much but it's rather easy to find out...

I'd agree that the original issue is more complicated. I guess what I'm trying to say is everything "seems" to be in the ballpark so I press the "believe button" as Stoney says. After all I haven't been saying that anything's wrong to begin with. :)
« Last Edit: July 19, 2010, 07:47:57 PM by Wmaker »
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Offline dtango

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Re: Brewster vs. P-38 Zoom test
« Reply #84 on: July 19, 2010, 07:57:29 PM »
I understand Wmaker.  However that's why BnZs is getting derailed.  He and others will get derailed again in the future on another plane if they don't understand the complexity behind the scenes.  First is misapplying aero figures of merit.  On that basis I'm working on a detailed response.  Yes BnZs, you got your wish because after evaluation too many folks have tripped on and will continue to trip on the issue.  Badboy has touched on a similar concept in the past related to turn performance.  I'll put together something similar for zoom climbs.

Tango
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Offline BnZs

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Re: Brewster vs. P-38 Zoom test
« Reply #85 on: July 19, 2010, 08:15:54 PM »
I understand Wmaker.  However that's why BnZs is getting derailed.  He and others will get derailed again in the future on another plane if they don't understand the complexity behind the scenes.  First is misapplying aero figures of merit.  On that basis I'm working on a detailed response.  Yes BnZs, you got your wish because after evaluation too many folks have tripped on and will continue to trip on the issue.  Badboy has touched on a similar concept in the past related to turn performance.  I'll put together something similar for zoom climbs.

Tango

Is the gist of what you told me in relation to power to drag ratio that sometimes the relative ratios of power to drag for two different planes can be different in an unloaded state (straight vertical zoom) than it is in when both planes are in straight and level, 1G flight? If so, I think I get it.
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Offline dtango

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Re: Brewster vs. P-38 Zoom test
« Reply #86 on: July 19, 2010, 08:33:02 PM »
Is the gist of what you told me in relation to power to drag ratio that sometimes the relative ratios of power to drag for two different planes can be different in an unloaded state (straight vertical zoom) than it is in when both planes are in straight and level, 1G flight? If so, I think I get it.
Power-to-drag is sort of a funky way of looking at it but the answer to your question is "well....sort of" ;).  I will attempt to explain without confusing everyone.
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Offline dtango

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Re: Brewster vs. P-38 Zoom test
« Reply #87 on: July 20, 2010, 06:06:25 PM »
BnZs you’re focused on power-to-weight, best rate of climb, & top level speed.  Before we discuss your AH flight tests these concepts need to be cleared up.  They are the basis for your premise of zoom climb performance and your logic runs into trouble first here.

Aerodynamic figures of merit (FOM) like L/D, P/W (power-to-weight), T/W, CD (drag coefficient), S/W (wing-loading), etc. give us some indication of an airplane’s performance.  Figures of merit are often used for their simplicity.  Their simplicity is also their danger because simplification abstracts and hides the complexities underneath.  The key is understanding what a FOM means and applying it in the right context.  Because they are simple it’s easy for people to use them to make erroneous conclusions about an aircraft’s performance because they misapply the FOM, usually in the form of over-simplification.

Precautions with Aerodynamic Figures of Merit

Take lift-to-drag ratio (L/D) for instance.  Quoting Dr. Warren Phillips,(Mechanics of Flight) “This maximum value for L/D is often referred to simply as the lift-to-drag ratio for the aircraft.  For example, you may hear it said that a particular airplane has a lift-to-drag ratio of 12.  This manner of speaking could erroneously lead the student to believe that this airplane will always produce 1 pound of drag for each 12 pounds of aircraft weight.  Nothing could be further from the truth...the ratio of lift to drag for an airplane varies greatly with airspeed.   It must be remembered that when an aerodynamicist specifies an unqualified lift-to-drag ratio for an aircraft, he or she is referring to the maximum lift-to-drag ratio for that aircraft”.  (Bold emphasis added).

Conceptually Dr. Phillips’ warning applies for other aerodynamic figures of merit, in our case power-to-weight related to climb performance.  We can’t assume key aero variables and thus figures of merit stay fixed, nor do they remain fixed relative to one airplane to another.   Thrust, drag, and power all change with changing velocity, altitude and configuration.

Power-to-Weight Ratio & Climb Performance

Let’s focus on power-to-weight ratio since this is important for us.  You’ll hear that climb performance is a function of airplane power-to-weight ratio but you have to understand what all that means.  

  • First, to be precise it’s actually excess-power-to weight ratio that determines rate of climb performance.  Excess-power-to-weight ratio is NOT = engine-HP/weight (more on this later). Excess-power-to-weight ratio, otherwise known as Specific Excess Power (Ps) is:

                Ps = (Thrust– Drag)*Velocity / Weight

  • Second just like L/D ratio Ps varies with respect to other things.  The value of Ps changes when velocity, altitude, or weight changes.  Just like L/D ratio, Ps does not remain constant across the full flight envelope of an airplane.
  • Third best rate of climb performance occurs at the maximum excess-power-to-weight ratio for a propeller plane.  (Best rate of climb usually means best STEADY rate of climb, or in other words when an airplane climbs at a constant velocity.)  All this implies that maximum Ps for the best steady rate of climb occurs only at a specific point in the flight envelope.

Let’s use an example to illustrate.  Suppose we have Airplane A with the following specs: BHP=1000 hp, Weight=5577 lbs, Prop Diam=9 ft, CD0=.028, Wing Area (S)= 208 ft^2.



This is a graph of Plane A’s steady climb performance at sea level.  In this example we’ve FIXED the altitude of the airplane (at sea level) and the weight (5577 lbs) so that we can further isolate other variables to visualize how they vary with respect to velocity.  Plotted on this graph are:

Airplane Steady Rate of Climb (ft/min) – solid blue line
Airplane Power Available (HP) – dashed blue line
Airplane Power Required (HP) – dotted blue line

The rate of climb curve is nothing more than a plot of the Ps function:
Ps = (Thrust – Drag) * Velocity / Weight  or,
Ps = (Thrust*Velocity – Drag*Velocity) / Weight or,
Ps=(power_available – power_required)/Weight         where

Thrust*Velocity = power available
Drag*Velocity = power required

Thus climb performance is a function of excess-power-to-weight ratio.  Note that the rate of climb is a curve and varies with velocity.  Rate of climb = Ps = excess-power-to-weight ratio.  This means excess-power-to-weight ratio varies and is not a fixed value.   Infact it varies by the difference between power available and power required (Pav  minus Prq) as they change with velocity: the greater the difference, the better the ROC.  

In our example across the velocity envelope the engine BHP is operating at 1000 HP at full throttle.  If you look at the power-available curve however you’ll notice that it is a range and not a fixed value.  Also we don’t even actually hit 1000hp.  For Plane A it tops out around 800hp.  It’s because an airplane’s ability to convert engine BHP into power available depends on the efficiency of the propeller.  The power available curve changes with velocity because propeller efficiency changes with velocity.  The point is power available is not a fixed constant value.  Nor is power required.

I’ve drawn a reference line through points A, B, C, & D on the graph.  Plane A has a best rate of climb at 3000 fpm at the peak of the ROC curve at point C.  There is only ONE velocity (point A), ONE power required (point B), and ONE power available (point D) that results in the best rate of climb at point C.  Maximum steady rate of climb occurs where the difference between power available minus power required is greatest.  This is represented and is validated by visual inspection of the difference in HP between points B & D compared to other parts of the graph.

When we talk about best steady rate of climb we’re really focusing on where Ps (excess-power-to-rate ratio) is at a maximum.  This is essentially a single point.  We’re not concerned with Ps outside of this maximum point.  The AH ROC charts are just a plot of each maximum point at each altitude for a given weight.  String them all together and you get the ROC chart.  However they don’t tell us anything about Ps outside of maximum excess-power-to-rate ratio.

Where Does Simple Power-to-Weight Ratio for Best Steady Climb Performance Come From?

If best climb performance is at maximum excess-power-to-rate ratio, where do we get this notion of using an even simpler figure of merit like “power to weight”  (engine HP/ weight) from?  It’s nothing more than a proxy for maximum excess-power-to-rate ratio.  

Why does this simple figure of merit work as a predictor of best climb performance?  Look back at our rate of climb figure.  Notice that at maximum rate of climb:

Point D – power available ~700 HP
Point B – power required ~150 HP

Because at best rate of climb power_available  >>  power_required, as an approximation we ignore power required and drop it from the Ps equation which gives us:

Ps= ROC ~ power_available / weight

We further approximate power available = max engine BHP because power available at best rate of climb is closer to maximum rated power of the engine (For Plane A 700hp~1000hp).  Applying this 2nd approximation we get:

ROC ~ engine_power / weight

So basic “power-to-weight” ratio is nothing more than a simple approximation to estimate best steady rate of climb performance.  It’s actually a decent proxy for best steady rate of climb performance.  

The key is that basic power-to-weight ratio is only an approximation for MAXIMUM excess-power-to-weight ratio which is only a SINGLE POINT on the Ps curve.  It is not a proxy for the whole Ps curve to predict Ps over the full flight envelope.  So when we use power-to-weight ratio we have to be mindful of this limitation.  (There’s a 2nd limitation in that simple power-to-weight ratio is also impacted by altitude as well which is altogether another topic.).  It doesn’t give us any indication of how Ps varies outside of the point of best rate of climb.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2010, 06:09:34 PM by dtango »
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Offline dtango

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Re: Brewster vs. P-38 Zoom test
« Reply #88 on: July 20, 2010, 06:06:56 PM »
Putting It Altogether – Relative Performance Comparisons Between Aircraft

OK, it’s now time to do some basic comparisons to add additional complexity when comparing different aircraft.  Let’s assume we have 3 airplanes: our original Plane A with the addition of Plane B and Plane C.

Plane A: BHP=1000hp, S=208ft^2, Prop Diam=9ft, CD0=.028, Weight=5577lbs
Plane B: BHP=1100hp, S=229ft^2, Prop Diam=10ft, CD0=.023, Weight=5750lbs
Plane C: BHP=2600hp, S=300ft^2, Prop Diam=13ft, CD0=.021, Weight=14250lbs

The following chart compares their best rates of climb at sea level:



So for best rates of steady climb we have the planes ranked 1)Plane B @ 3450fpm, 2)Plane C @ 3200fpm, 3)Plane A @ 3000fpm.  Calculating simple power-to-weight ratio (engine BHP/weight) we get:

Plane B P/W = .191 hp/lb
Plane C P/W = .182 hp/lb
Plane A P/W = .179 hp/lb

Simple power-to-weight ratio is a pretty fair indicator of best steady rate of climb performance as can seen from the calculations vs. our ROC chart.  However, this applies for a single point and simple power-to-weight ratio doesn’t tell us much about the Ps curve and how it varies outside of this point.  If we overlay the rate of climb curve with this single point we get the following chart:



Examining the chart notice first ROC (Ps) is not a point or flat line (fixed value) but a curve.  2nd where and how the ROC curves fit in relationship to each other is important.  Note that in our case we have overlaps between them.  What the overlaps tell us is that you can’t assume that the difference between excess-power-to-weight ratio between aircraft will remain the same in flight.  As you can see there are times when Plane C’s ROC is better than Plane B and times that Plane A’s ROC is better than Plane C.

Now let’s assume Plane A, Plane B, & Plane C zoom climb at 90 degrees nose above horizon (straight up).  Each has the same initial start speed of 360mph and 100ft altitude.  Which plane zooms the highest?  If we take simple power-to-weight ratio or best steady rate of climb as the measure we would conclude that the rank would be 1) Plane B highest, 2) Plane C 2nd,  3) Plane A 3rd.

Well, we would be wrong.  Here’s the zoom performance of Plane A, B, & C:



As can be seen Plane C actually zooms the highest of the three topping out at 5400 ft.  Plane B is 2nd at 5200 ft and Plane A is 3rd at 4950 ft.  Simple power-to-weight ratio is not an accurate predictor of zoom climb performance.  Nor is best rate of climb.  The reason is because for a zoom climb we are interested in the specific excess power Ps (excess power-to-rate ratio) across the full flight envelope and not just a single point.  In other words Ps is not a constant value.  Simple power-to-weight ratio is just a point approximation for max excess power-to-rate ratio which is also a point.  In fact the airplane that has the greatest time average of Ps over the zoom climb will out zoom the others.  In other words we have to add up all the values of Ps across the full Ps curve to predict zoom climb performance.

2ndly we also can’t assume that the Ps curve relative relationships between aircraft will remain the same either for all situations.  If we change the weight of Plane A from 5577lbs to 4750lbs here is the outcome of that both for steady rate of climb and zoom climb height:



Plane A now has the best steady rate of climb at 3700 fpm.  In zoom climb Plane A and Plane B are now also roughly equal in zoom altitude of 5200 ft.  The point is that relative differences in weight will change climb performance as well and we can’t assume that the same Ps relationship difference between aircraft at one weight remains consistent at different weights too.

Well, if you haven’t figured out already my generic planes A, B, & C are models of existing WW2 aircraft which are:

Plane A: B-239
Plane B: A6M5b
Plane C: P-47D-40

I purposely left it that way so that the focus would first be on the aero concepts.  This is just Part 1 of my detailed discussion.  In Part 2 we will dive into more depth regarding zoom climbs themselves

To summarize the key concepts:
  • We must use aerodynamic figures of merit wisely and cautiously.
  • Using simple power-to-weight ratio or best rate of climb performance as approximations for zoom climb performance are unreliable and can lead you to erroneous conclusions.  They describe only a point and not the full Ps curve.
  • Many aerodynamic variables are not fixed but vary with respect to velocity, altitude, and configuration (e.g. weight).
  • We can’t assume that an airplane’s performance relative to others remains the same as velocity, altitude, and configuration (e.g. weight) change.

We haven’t addressed the flight test results yet.  Be careful not to make hasty conclusions about what my model projects compared to BnZs flight tests.  We’ll talk about that in Part 2.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2010, 07:50:36 PM by dtango »
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Offline bozon

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Re: Brewster vs. P-38 Zoom test
« Reply #89 on: July 21, 2010, 05:17:05 AM »
You didn't mention the zoom TIME and this fools many people. In the last figure, plane A's zoom takes 1.5-2 second longer than plane C, but the height difference is achieved already a few seconds earlier and stays constant - till plane C stalls. What will happen next is that place C is falling but A is still hovering underneath. From the POV of plane C pilot, he will observe plane A still pointing at him and getting closer. Typically, the chasing plane will start its zoom in short delay with respect to the leading plane which will enhance this effect. It gives the illusion to pilot C that plane A zooms much higher than it really does.

Power to weight has more direct implication on the zoom time that on the height. This is because at the beginning (high speed) the drag is still significant compared to weight. Nearer to the top, drag drops close to zero (speed squared...) and what is left is much closer to simple prop pull vs. gravity, even if the plane is as aerodynamic as an elephant. Still, because the speed is slow, not much altitude is gained per unit time, but deceleration rate is directly affected by the difference between gravity and the prop pull. Of course, if the prop thrust at low speeds starts to get close to the weight, that last stage can take a log time and even slow speed will gain some real height, but this is not the typical case for WWII fighters.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2010, 05:32:22 AM by bozon »
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