Brewster vs. P-38 Zoom test

[Chalenge]

Eric Shilling discusses dogfighting a Brewster with a P-40 (anecdotal?)  :

http://staff.jccc.net/droberts/p40/p40bb.html

[Bronk]

Eric Shilling discusses dogfighting a Brewster with a P-40 (anecdotal?)  :

http://staff.jccc.net/droberts/p40/p40bb.html

Not a fin brewster now is it.

[Ack-Ack]

Eric Shilling discusses dogfighting a Brewster with a P-40 (anecdotal?)  :

http://staff.jccc.net/droberts/p40/p40bb.html

Anecdotal yes, germane to this discussion?  No. 

ack-ack

[Wmaker]

Eric Shilling discusses dogfighting a Brewster with a P-40 (anecdotal?)  :

http://staff.jccc.net/droberts/p40/p40bb.html

This is the type of "noise" I was talking about.

[Chalenge]

"Noise" maybe but from everything said about this aircraft it is probably the rarest aircraft of WWII having fewer built than any example in the game. Even the Finnish records dont say much about performance other than it didnt have trouble against Hurricanes and was showing age by the time of the La-5 or Yak 9. Probably it shouldnt even be in the game.

[Stoney]

Probably it shouldnt even be in the game.

 

Hmmm...Arguably, it was the most significant aircraft in the Winter and Continuation Wars.

Oh, and this part:  "the rarest aircraft of WWII having fewer built than any example in the game." is incorrect.

[Bronk]

Voss ran out of oxygen at 40k... he's now spouting hyperbole.

[Wmaker]

"Noise" maybe but from everything said about this aircraft it is probably the rarest aircraft of WWII having fewer built than any example in the game. Even the Finnish records dont say much about performance other than it didnt have trouble against Hurricanes and was showing age by the time of the La-5 or Yak 9. Probably it shouldnt even be in the game.

Why not trying to post something that's relevant to this thread?

[Chalenge]

I just did. Maybe you cant work it through but Im sure there are some that can.

[Chalenge]

Hmmm...Arguably, it was the most significant aircraft in the Winter and Continuation Wars.

Oh, and this part:  "the rarest aircraft of WWII having fewer built than any example in the game." is incorrect.

You are talking about the Finnish Brewster with the DC-3 engine? Because from what you just wrote it sure didnt sound like it. There were only 44 built. What other airplane in the game had fewer built?

I dont have any doubt that Hitech knows what he is doing but I doubt there is any way to quantify the vertical zoom of the Brewster in the game with the one from Finland. For one thing the very act of zooming is dependant upon entry speed. You cannot tell if the real aircraft held to the same example BNZs used. For another thing the perception of humans in witnessing the performance of an airplane is subjective and not a realistic measure.

I very seriously doubt there was all that much special about the Brewster that Finland had in their defense than any of the other Brewsters from the same factory. You should bear in mind that the Finnish aircraft had only 900 h.p. compared to 1200 h.p. available to the model tested in the 'anecdotal' competition with a P-40.

Please if you have hard written evidence of test aircraft from the period that indicates this particular model was superior to the others than share it with us all. I have been told that the model in the game was elevated to its current abilities through anecdotal evidence (actually no evidence at all except a verbal "no thats not quite right"). Well I for one think what we have in the game doesnt fit with reality but like I said... despite looking there doesnt seem to be any evidence either way... except anecdotal.

The "experts" in this case cant prove it either way but they will certainly circle the wagons to protect their own baseless positions.

[grizz441]

Voss ran out of oxygen at 40k... he's now spouting hyperbole.

  Quite some time ago.

I'm not a WW2 history buff, but by proving him wrong, the best one can accomplish is running him off with facts.  He will never admit fault, a character flaw that Voss has always had.

[Chalenge]

Quite some time ago.

I'm not a WW2 history buff, but by proving him wrong, the best one can accomplish is running him off with facts.  He will never admit fault, a character flaw that Voss has always had.

You seem to be quite taken with this individual. You must miss him terribly. So sorry for you. 

Nice contribution to the thread.

[dtango]

You are talking about the Finnish Brewster with the DC-3 engine?

What's the point of this comment?  If you're doing that then whey so conveniently leave out the fact that Wright 1820's also powered the B-17, SBD, & FM-2 as well besides the C-47 just to name a few.  Oh nevermind, I get it.  It's a thinly veiled potshot at how crappy the Buffalo "should" be by associating it to a slow lumbering airplane.

I dont have any doubt that Hitech knows what he is doing but I doubt there is any way to quantify the vertical zoom of the Brewster in the game with the one from Finland.

So what you're really saying is that infact Hitech and Pyro don't really know what they are doing.  Nice.  

I very seriously doubt there was all that much special about the Brewster that Finland had in their defense than any of the other Brewsters from the same factory. You should bear in mind that the Finnish aircraft had only 900 h.p. compared to 1200 h.p. available to the model tested in the 'anecdotal' competition with a P-40.

You ask Stoney for facts yet you choose to ignore facts yourself.  Wow what a strange world you live in.
FACT: Wright 1820-G5 1000 hp not 900.
FACT: F2A-2/B-339 was ~700-1000 lbs heavier - that's adding an additional whopping ~20% more weight to the B-239.  You don't think this would mess with the performance any?  The least that you could do is run a few simple calcs to get an inkling.

Please if you have hard written evidence of test aircraft from the period that indicates this particular model was superior to the others than share it with us all. I have been told that the model in the game was elevated to its current abilities through anecdotal evidence (actually no evidence at all except a verbal "no thats not quite right"). Well I for one think what we have in the game doesnt fit with reality but like I said... despite looking there doesnt seem to be any evidence either way... except anecdotal.

You actually think that HTC uses the aeromythnamics method of FM by relying on anecdotes for the B-239?  That's what you get for listening to the clueless.

The "experts" in this case cant prove it either way but they will certainly circle the wagons to protect their own baseless positions.

The only thing I've seen that's been baseless around here is the weak to non-existent logic associated with the whines about the B-239.

EDIT: and for the record, I actually liked the anecdote you posted but couldn't let your other ranting & raving go without a response.

Tango

[Chalenge]

So what you're really saying is that infact Hitech and Pyro don't really know what they are doing.  Nice.  

That right there proves your true agenda and lack of real argument.

No I pointed out the aircraft the engine came from so you could look up the power straight away. Nice attempt at nit-picking one possible intention while ignoring the real and stated reason.

You and three others (now four) in this thread specialize in bloviation only on this BBS with a side-helping of self-congratulation. None of you are fooling anyone.

[Baumer]

None of you are fooling anyone.

Neither are you (as usual), you have provided ZERO actionable information to pinpoint an error in HTC's modeling of the B-239. You then spend all of your time arguing about how everyone else is responding. Why don't you take your own advice, and try and provide a real contribution to a thread with actual data for once.