Making Sense of the New Health Care Rules

[fbWldcat]

C'mon, Skuz, hurry up and lock it, I'm tired of these useless notifications. Although the HBO mini-series going on there is getting interesting...  

[Shuffler]

The US spends way too much on other countries..................

[Tigger29]

nationmaster says USA has more per capita than NZ (2.3 per 1000 vs 2.2 per 1000).

welfare it says NZ spends 18.5% of gdp on welfare vs USA's 14.8%.

So we have less doctors, spend more money on welfare, low net taxation, and a good working public healthcare system.

Not saying you guys are gonna get this overnight, but the naysayers to public healthcare need to face the fact that it is being done successfully. I doubt NZ is the only country. Sure it's not perfect, but it sounds better than what you guys have.

The population of New Zealand is less than 4.4 million with a density of less than 42 people per square mile.  The Dallas, Texas Metro Area (basically a few cities bunched together) which is where HTC is based out of.. has a population of just under 6.5 million with just under 3700 people per square mile.  Keep in mind, this is one single metro area in one of fifty states with almost 50% more than your entire country.  The United States has a total population of... what?  310 MILLION PEOPLE?  Heck, the last time the US had the same population that NZ has now was in the 1790's!!!

My point is that running a government controlled health care system is a completely different endeavor for each of us.  People in smaller countries such as yours often have a hard time understanding just how big this difference is!  I saw someone else on here from NZ (may have even been you) who was scratching their head in disbelief that the US doesn't have nearly as much internet bandwidth, speed, consistency, or reliability as you do.. but the reason is because there is such a huge area, and such a large number and range of people... that it is nearly impossible to do...

Health care reform is a similar kind of deal.  It will be on such a large scale that it will be impossible to implement, let alone to do so in an efficient and uncorrupted way.  Throw in a government that was designed FROM THE BEGINNING to be purposely inefficient in order to keep people from wanting this sort of thing... and it's just a recipe for disaster.

You also have to remember that there are at least 3 levels of government here (for the most part)...

• Local Government (Each city/town has their own laws and government figures)
• State Government
• Federal Government

Of course State trumps Local laws, and Federal trumps them all... but it's three levels of Government each person has to deal with.  Because of why and how this country formed, the Federal Government was designed to have very little actual power.  I mean, we broke away from a monarchist Government mostly due to their abuse of power, and as a direct result of that we designed our Federal Government to have a lot of checks and balances, and also designed it so the population would be discouraged from wanting them to control issues on things.. just like this.

Now the State government is a little different.  These Governments were designed to have a lot more impact on each persons' lives... so in essence, the State Government (from the population's points of view) should be much, much more powerful than the Federal Government.  And this was plausible because if it got to be too ridiculous, you could simply move to another state.

Well over the years (especially the last century) the Federal Government has inched its way along becoming gradually more and more a part of the average person's life... starting with the old "New Deal" programs and then getting involved with education funding and employment and retirement... more recently with "Stimulus Recovery Programs" and now they want to add health care to that list?!  It's simply ridiculous even to the point that it is, that the Federal Government has as much power as it does.

I could continue to go on and on about the subject but I have to stop here, as I don't want to be the one responsible for locking this thread... but the simple fact is that the American Public should not only reject a Federal Controlled health care program.. but SHOULD BE OBLIGATED TO DO SO based on principle.  Many people have forgotten this obligation.

Now, if each State wants to maybe propose their own versions of health care reform... depending on what it would entail I may be for or against it... but regardless it would be the responsibility of each state to do so... NOT THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.

[lyric1]

Having come from a country with National health care (Australia) as well as a private health insurance system to fill the gaps the national system wont fill or is lacking. Employers have nothing to do with health insurance there every one is in the national system & you can choose a private option of your choice. Or no private coverage.

Living 26 years there & the past 21 years here in the USA. A couple of comparisons between the two.

Never waited in line in Australia under national system. I have under my employers system here in the States.

Never have been refused service under Australian system. I have here under employer system.

Never paid a deductable under Australian system. Always have here in the USA.

Cost? Australian system cheaper than here in the USA hands down.

Preexisting condition clauses in Australia? None at least while I was there. You know the answer for here.

Level of care by medical practitioners on both continents? About the same for the most part with the exception of waiting here in the USA & denial of service.

Take it for what it's worth just my experience to date.

[Vulcan]

The population of New Zealand is less than 4.4 million with a density of less than 42 people per square mile.  The Dallas, Texas Metro Area (basically a few cities bunched together) which is where HTC is based out of.. has a population of just under 6.5 million with just under 3700 people per square mile.  Keep in mind, this is one single metro area in one of fifty states with almost 50% more than your entire country.  The United States has a total population of... what?  310 MILLION PEOPLE?  Heck, the last time the US had the same population that NZ has now was in the 1790's!!!

One could argue the opposite though, the USA has massive resources compared to NZ, our low spread out population is difficult to service.

But yeah the rest of it is very valid about the govt structure, that is probably the biggest problem facing you guys.

Again the point many of us are trying to make is public healthcare is not evil, works, doesn't cost more (actually it appears to cost the tax payer less).

When we hear the cost of medical care in the USA, and the refusal based on pre-existing conditions we are absolutely gobsmacked.

[ozrocker]

One major reason of high costs here? GREED Especially for the big drug companies. They prey on people, especially older. There are certain meds that lets say have their "protection" (ie trademark) clauses, that prevent anyone else from making a generic brand for several years, or longer. A lot of meds that the elderly use, are especially high priced. The companies know that the meds are needed, know they are the only makers, and jack the prices. Older people flock to the Canadien Pharmacies and get same Meds for often a quarter of the costs that they would pay here.
The reps that go to the DR's offices to push the meds, often make 100k + a year. Often are given perks and big bonuses.
They recently changed the laws on what drug companies can give to Dr's who prescribe their meds. Companies were often giving away cruises and other perks.
A lot still (as far as I know), give Dr's a kickback for every script they write for particular high profit drugs (ie Heart Meds, Blood Pressure Meds, etc.)
Med care in the states is not equal, like justice it depends on how much money you have.
I for one, am lucky. I do have insurance. I pay a good bit each month for it, but I have a wife and 1 daughter left at home, I have to have it.
If I did not have it, I would be almost a quarter mil in Med debt, because of bladder cancer surgery and follow-ups, and spinal fusion surgery and follow-ups.
I am retired now and have no clue what i would do if I had no insurance. I'm hoping that things will improve somehow in the states. It won't be by mandating everything and forcing people to buy it, nor by a Gov. run program will it get fixed.
                                                                                                 <S> Oz

[CAP1]

Combine free healthcare with all the people here that would go to the doctor for everything with the lack of doctors.  What will that lead to?  The thing that pisses me off about the whole thing is I would carry the insurance that my company offers if it wasn't a complete piece of overpriced crap.  God help my if I have it and need a MRI on my knee.  I would still owe over 2 grand after the insurance paid it's $1,000 and I would have any money left for test for the rest of the year.

it will NOT be free.

[CAP1]

nationmaster says USA has more per capita than NZ (2.3 per 1000 vs 2.2 per 1000).

welfare it says NZ spends 18.5% of gdp on welfare vs USA's 14.8%.

So we have less doctors, spend more money on welfare, low net taxation, and a good working public healthcare system.

Not saying you guys are gonna get this overnight, but the naysayers to public healthcare need to face the fact that it is being done successfully. I doubt NZ is the only country. Sure it's not perfect, but it sounds better than what you guys have.

well....remember this. the person that said that he would impose no new taxes has signed a HUGE new tax into law, known as the healthcare bill. that is what it amounts to, just with a different name.
 not only that, but i believe there will be limits on some things...........it is not good at all. our taxes/expenses are going to skyrocket when this kicks in.....no matter how you look at it, because you either buy what they tell you to buy, or they charge you a tax because you didn't. what is this country coming to?

[CAP1]

The US spends way too much on other countries..................

+ a billion

[FLOTSOM]

what people forget to consider also is that the big drug companies are under no obligation to create "cures". the majority of the meds on the market are designed for one purpose only, that is to treat.

now before someone says "they are the same thing", i shall explain a bit.

lets say for example you sprain your wrist. when a doctor gives you any kind of pain management medication he treating a symptom or side effect of the underlying cause, this is the same when he prescribes an anti-inflamatory medication. the only part of the process that is actually intended to aid in the bodies recovery of the damage done to it is the bandage that he wraps your wrist in to reduce movement. that bandage being the least expensive part of the entire process is in the end the only part of the process that promotes natural recovery of the injured wrist.

the drug companies go into the process with the understanding that a person who is "treated" uses alot more medication and for a much longer period of time than a person who is cured. pain and discomfort "management" are the biggest of these treatments, the will give you painkillers just for walking in the door of a hospital or clinic these days.

when i was a boy my brother put his arm through a window causing multiple deep gashes on his for arm, i remember when he came home from the hospital later that evening, my dad explained to my mom that the doctor had numbed the arm so they could stitch it, but that from that point on nothing more than aspirin should be needed to control his pain. a year or so ago a friend of mine cut his arm at work, (it was a single gash fairly deep but no bigger than the biggest gash on my brothers arm). he told me when we talked of his trip to the hospital that they prescribed him a weeks worth of a morphine like (i don't know meds so i don't remember the name) pain killer for a cut that he told me didn't bother him a bit without the medication. he said that he had filled the prescription and the bill he had to turn over to his work was over $200.00 for that one prescription. now keep in mind, that pain management drug does absolutely nothing to help promote healing or curing of the underlying cause, the gash. it only "treats" a symptom, the pain.

this is the same philosophy used by the drug companies when they look to any potentially long term health issue. you make far more money "treating" a cold than curing it. between pain and discomfort drugs and other management medications they will make far more money than if they just did one of two things, first tell you to take your sissy bellybutton home and tough it out for a couple days while your body does what it was designed to do, or second and only if truly needed, give you an antibiotic to help kill the bug and be done with it.

if the drug companies make a pill and call it a treatment, then doctors out of fear of being sued by the patient for not prescribing it, will prescribe it all the time. many of the drugs we are given have less than a 30% rate of success doing what they are being prescribed to do in clinical testing. that means that some of the medication being given to the public is already known to be worthless, or even worse harmful, to the patient two thirds of the time. but this will not stop the drug companies from promoting their "treatment" and pushing the doctors to prescribe it.

think of it this way, if you knew your automechanic had less than a one third success rate in fixing your car but was constantly charging you an inflated amount of money for parts that had nothing to do with the problem you brought it in for, how long would you continue to use him?

we as Americans have also aided in the creation of our own Frankenstein health system by our own actions. every cut bump bruise or cough and we tend to run to the doctors like lil babies crying to mamma. a good diet, a lil exercises and some common sense and the end of a majority of American health issues would be a very real possibility. but alas, this will never be, we Americans have become slaves to our own sissydom!

in the time i have been writing this (about 20 minutes) there have been 5 prescription drug commercials on tv..............

[CAP1]

good write.

i also believe that the over-use of drugs(prescription) is a major cause for people getting so sick, so easily these days.

[FLOTSOM]

good write.

i also believe that the over-use of drugs(prescription) is a major cause for people getting so sick, so easily these days.

Agreed! everytime you use an outside source to treat or cure a sickness you weaken the bodies own natural ability to do these things for themselves.

i refuse to take medication of any kind. i was just brought up that way. i might get a cold about once every 4 or 5 years. oh and i work in the towing industry so i am exposed to many strangers in all walks of life every day. so i am not living in a sheltered bubble away from the world, my risk of exposure is definitely high enough to show that your body is designed to fight for itself and will if given the opportunity.

now obviously some things have to be treated, the body cannot cure all things by itself and some people have other issues that are either genetic or environmental etc etc, for these issue outside help is needed for survival. but we abuse this and turn to drugs and doctors for everything. we have created such a bloated and wasteful system that i honestly don't think it can be cured........only treated

[CAP1]

Agreed! everytime you use an outside source to treat or cure a sickness you weaken the bodies own natural ability to do these things for themselves.

i refuse to take medication of any kind. i was just brought up that way. i might get a cold about once every 4 or 5 years. oh and i work in the towing industry so i am exposed to many strangers in all walks of life every day. so i am not living in a sheltered bubble away from the world, my risk of exposure is definitely high enough to show that your body is designed to fight for itself and will if given the opportunity.

now obviously some things have to be treated, the body cannot cure all things by itself and some people have other issues that are either genetic or environmental etc etc, for these issue outside help is needed for survival. but we abuse this and turn to drugs and doctors for everything. we have created such a bloated and wasteful system that i honestly don't think it can be cured........only treated

yep,

the only thing i ever take, is asperin, or ibuprofen if i get a bad enough headache.

 and like you said.......i get sick only every few years. oh yea....almost forgot.......when i DO get a cold, vicks vapor rub. i put it on me just like my grand mother used to do....and it works......

[Shuffler]

Drug companies that sell a drug for $100 a tablet here will sell the same tablet overseas for $5.



We have more folks in our government than there are people in NZ.


Impossible to compare to smaller countries head to head.

[RTHolmes]

its not impossible, its just requires some appreciation of the effects of scale.