Jabos in an 8th AF setup...

[Stoney]

Gents,

I know I'm grumpy, but I really hate seeing the Allies use Jabos during 8th AF FSOs.  I'll happily fly a bomber during an 8th AF setup.  I'd rather fly a B-24 or B-17 in an 8th AF setup than a bomb-truck P-47 which will undoubtedly get to the target, lacking local air superiority, low, slow, and grossly overburdened with bombs, and I'm a P-47 fanboi.  Its usually a quick trip to the tower.  Especially when the target is a strat target instead of a point target.

B-17s and B-24s allow the Allies to have a great force multiplier, with 3 aircraft per pilot, at altitude, with a decent chance of making it all the way from takeoff, to target, to landing with at least one drone alive.  Roaring into an objective area in a Jabo, at medium altitude, at 17,000+ lbs of aircraft and ordnance, with the enemy CAP circling like buzzards above you at 30,000 feet is no fun in my mind.

Strat bombers were designed to operate in hostile airspace, without or with very little localized air superiority.  They make the escorts mission much easier.  Jabos, even after ditching their ordnance, are too low, e-deficient, and nothing more than targets to chase, unless localized air superiority is achieved and maintained, until such a time as they are able to defend themselves.

I make my appeal to the community to embrace some "reality" for these 8th AF setups.  I think they simply are some of the best FSO setups.  But I really feel like I'm in the MA, when Jabos are used.

I know not everyone will agree with me, just throwing my $.02 downrange for whatever its worth.

[Fencer51]

+1 

[gusman]

Do all heavy Bombers have to take off with 100% fuel?

Cheers,
gus

[Krusty]

I'd rather fly a B-24 or B-17 in an 8th AF setup than a bomb-truck P-47 which will undoubtedly get to the target, lacking local air superiority, low, slow, and grossly overburdened with bombs, and I'm a P-47 fanboi.

On more than one occasion my squad has floundered in 190s or 109s at 30k, maybe 32k at most, and watched as entire squadrons of BOMB LADEN P-47s flew above us completely unmolested, dropped on the target, and got away in a 600mph dive.


I totally agree with you, but for the totally opposite reasons.

In FSO folks have done this hundreds of times and know just how to game the game, just how to get a job done without any risk, unlike the boys in WW2 that did this for real. Historically bomb-laden P-47s may have flown into the target at 10k. Here in AH they never drop below 35k if they can help it. 

[thorsim]

multi level attacks are a difficult problem 1v1 especially since the high ground belongs to the 8th (not historic)

with the bombers having a 3-1 number multiplier i really have trouble seeing anything but allied advantage in this one.  

[Krusty]

Every time late war is run like this it's almost always an allied slaughter of the LW. Objectives may be set up so that overall points can be balanced by both sides, but the axis get pretty much wiped from the sky. My squad's been axis most times these setups come along, and it's always the same no matter what the orders, what the mission.... 35k+ P51s, P38s, P47s screaming in full throttle against planes that can barely make a banked turn without losing 2000ft alt.

[Stoney]

Can we keep this one on point?  I started it to discuss the use of Jabos, not balance issues, or plane performance. 

[dmdchief]

well with the fuel burn set at 1.5 the p47 was 1 way ticket without taking 2 drop tanks and then cutting back to max cruise at 200 but then you had g14's find you down on the deck and kill you anyway, but it was rather stupid to have p47's doing jabbo that far away from the re-arm base even with the air start. \
Just my opinion
ab8aac/dmdchief/aac

[Nefarious]

It didn't help that that the P-47s and their P-51 escort spawned from two different locations, 5 sectors away from each other. 

[PFactorDave]

See Rules #4, #6

[FiLtH]

   I prefer the heavies.

    At what alt did the P47s spawn in at. We in 109ks were at 33k when the spawn alert was announced. We flew for a very short time and when we made contact the P47s were co-alt at like 35k. I thought someone said they would be 26k when spawned..just curious.

[thorsim]

See Rules #4, #6

[Krusty]

Well axis knew exactly where our air spawns were and climbed like bats outta hell to pick us off as we came out of these said air spawns... That negated any advantage the US planes could get because we never got UP to alt....

Heavy P-47s (we were 28k max, most lower) were dog meat because our escort moved on ahead of us and never stayed near by.

The point being not to dogfight but to get to the target... A number of us did get past the air-spawn-camper dweebs, but only after sacrificing 50%-60% of our numbers and nosing down to run away at max speed. Hell we even ran into 25k HEAVY 190A8s, with WGr21s and all... We got wiped out before any of us got to the target.

Worst airspawns ever..... Or perhaps just the map needs to remove them from the grids on the clipboard. Either way.

[vonKrimm]

Heavy P-47s (we were 28k max, most lower) were dog meat because our escort moved on ahead of us and never stayed near by.

Did you read the orders Krusty?  Do you know who was assigned escort for your mission?  Did you make contact with the assigned escort?  Your assigned escort was never in front of you and you'd know that if you'd contacted them.

For the record, my squad had exactly the same mission as you and a complete plane of action.  We knew who was to escort your squad & our squad to the target.  We knew where they were because we read the orders.  we knew that they were starting 4 sectors behind us & planned accordingly.  We also made & stayed in contact with the assigned escort, not that it helped your squads or my squads plight.

All that being said and back on-topic:  Yup, jabos for 8th AF missions is poo-poo!

[Viper61]

Stoney to your original statement and my observation:

  I agree that "we" should be seeing larger bomber formations in general.  My opinion when the point value of a single bomber (20) nearly match's the point value of a target Hanger (25) and the targets at the fields are limited to just the hangers a good CIC probably will limit the exposure of the bombers to his min numbers.  It doesn't make sense to risk 400 points worth of bombers to get 100 points in hangers.  Even if the bombers have a better chance of making it.  Lose 5 bombers and your gain is all lost.  To many things can go wrong from escorts not escorting or bomber groups going back and forth 3 or 4 times over the same target allowing every enemy plane within 75 miles to converge on them.

  If I were CIC'ing during this scenario I would only use my min numbers in bombers because of the point value of the possible gain to the possible loss.  The city targets are the exception and bombers almost have to be used to take them out.

  Reduce the point values of the bombers or increase the point values of the targets or reduce the numbers of targets and you will probably see more bombers used.  City type targets almost require the use of bombers, so use more city type targets.  I'm not sure of what ratio to recommend is, but probably a 1.5 - 2.0 ratio of target points to bomber loss's based on 7 pilots (21) bombers crossing a target would be about right to encourage more bomber usage.

  Another observation:  The amount of total targets.  You really cant assign bombers to each target or you would have more bombers in the air than escorts when the FSO rules on splitting squad plane types are figured into the ratio's.  You really cant use a lot of bombers in a plan when there are 7 targets to hit.  Also you have the requirements on planes types that must be used for a frame (7 of 9 for the ALLIES).  All driving the CIC to use less bombers.  Don't know if this was by design or not, but its the way its working out for this scenario.