Author Topic: Plane can't fly without Vertical Stab  (Read 7666 times)

Offline SectorNine50

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Re: Plane can't fly without Vertical Stab
« Reply #30 on: November 01, 2010, 03:55:23 PM »
Funny how birds do not have one though, isn't it?

 :noid

They accomplish the same thing by twisting their "horizontal stab."

The B2 bomber's computer does something similar, but by using the ailerons for everything.
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Offline Beefcake

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Re: Plane can't fly without Vertical Stab
« Reply #31 on: November 01, 2010, 03:56:05 PM »
One time I lost a vertical stab while flying my trusty B25. It was quite easy for me to RTB so yeah I would say a plane can still fly with "a" vertical stab missing.  :D
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Offline VonMessa

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Re: Plane can't fly without Vertical Stab
« Reply #32 on: November 01, 2010, 03:57:31 PM »
They accomplish the same thing by twisting their "horizontal stab."

The B2 bomber's computer does something similar, but by using the ailerons for everything.

Yeah, it's integral, and awesome!    :aok
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Offline RTHolmes

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Re: Plane can't fly without Vertical Stab
« Reply #33 on: November 01, 2010, 03:59:09 PM »
I'll add a successful mossie landing after 2 sector flight with tailfin shot off :D

was really surprised by how flyable it was, obviously you dont want to take the p*** but for normal flight it was fine if a bit yawy. one thing to note is that not all of it gets shot off - theres still about a foots worth of fin sticking up which must help a bit.
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Offline nrshida

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Re: Plane can't fly without Vertical Stab
« Reply #34 on: November 01, 2010, 04:46:51 PM »
I can't speak for the real world because I've never been in an aircraft with a missing vertical stabiliser yet, and I hope to never do so either!

In AH however it is just a question of technique. Once you are upright, you can control your pitch as normal. You need to pitch down slightly, about ten degrees will do nicely. The aircraft may want to slew around when you do this. Let's say the aircraft starts to yaw to the left, presenting the right wingtip to the airflow. If you don't correct this it will flip over (rolling inverted to the left). If you roll slightly to the right, the aircraft tends to slew back into line, presumably because the wings present a larger surface area to the airflow than the horizontal surfaces. Then you must correct your pitch again etc. You just continue this cycle until you are near the ground / water. You will feel like the leaf that Filth describes. At the right moment you can flair out. At this point don't fuss too much to point the right way, it's your rate of descent which matters for a nice soft belly flop. Gear is optional but usually breaks off unless you're lined up just right (I sometimes think this buffers the impact though).

I hope I've described the inputs correctly because it's the first time I've thought about what you do, I really just fly by the seat of my pants. Once you get a feel for that kind of oscillating flightpath with the ailerons and elevators alone it should come naturally. Throttle work can also help to control your attitude. The point is to not give up, and don't panic even if you lose it completely, you can often pull it back. Be patient and look for those opportunities to reestablish the nose-low attitude. The prop will pull you along. Do what you can to try and get it down safely. Give it a try, it's a lot of fun.

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Offline SectorNine50

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Re: Plane can't fly without Vertical Stab
« Reply #35 on: November 01, 2010, 04:51:51 PM »
I can't speak for the real world because I've never been in an aircraft with a missing vertical stabiliser yet, and I hope to never do so either!

In AH however it is just a question of technique. Once you are upright, you can control your pitch as normal. You need to pitch down slightly, about ten degrees will do nicely. The aircraft may want to slew around when you do this. Let's say the aircraft starts to yaw to the left, presenting the right wingtip to the airflow. If you don't correct this it will flip over (rolling inverted to the left). If you roll slightly to the right, the aircraft tends to slew back into line, presumably because the wings present a larger surface area to the airflow than the horizontal surfaces. Then you must correct your pitch again etc. You just continue this cycle until you are near the ground / water. You will feel like the leaf that Filth describes. At the right moment you can flair out. At this point don't fuss too much to point the right way, it's your rate of descent which matters for a nice soft belly flop. Gear is optional but usually breaks off unless you're lined up just right (I sometimes think this buffers the impact though).

I hope I've described the inputs correctly because it's the first time I've thought about what you do, I really just fly by the seat of my pants. Once you get a feel for that kind of oscillating flightpath with the ailerons and elevators alone it should come naturally. Throttle work can also help to control your attitude. The point is to not give up, and don't panic even if you lose it completely, you can often pull it back. Be patient and look for those opportunities to reestablish the nose-low attitude. The prop will pull you along. Do what you can to try and get it down safely. Give it a try, it's a lot of fun.



This effect is probably due to the adverse yaw created by using the ailerons.
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Offline nrshida

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Re: Plane can't fly without Vertical Stab
« Reply #36 on: November 01, 2010, 05:23:27 PM »
Here's a short film from today showing the technique I described. Unfortunately one of the gentlemen I was flying against was disinclined to let me leave the field (not maxous, he's a good friend of mine), so I was unable to demonstrate the all important artistic flare out. I had control at the start of the film but had to make some harsh manoeuvres to evade the P-39 attack. After this I regain control before having to evade again before my wing just fell right off. You can see the oscillating technique in the middle.

film14.ahf

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Offline rvflyer

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Re: Plane can't fly without Vertical Stab
« Reply #37 on: November 01, 2010, 06:37:06 PM »
Actually you were on your way to the crash site.
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Offline Tupac

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Re: Plane can't fly without Vertical Stab
« Reply #38 on: November 01, 2010, 06:43:25 PM »
Actually you were on your way to the crash site.

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Offline B4Buster

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Re: Plane can't fly without Vertical Stab
« Reply #39 on: November 01, 2010, 08:29:38 PM »

The vertical stab?   Surely you mean a horizontal stab?

Speaking from experience I have never managed to control a mossy with no vert stab, but I would love to see the film if ya did it!

naw, vertical stab.
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Offline nrshida

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Re: Plane can't fly without Vertical Stab
« Reply #40 on: November 02, 2010, 01:29:12 AM »
Ah doubters, lol. OK, Will try to get a better movie today, including the touchdown. I'm confident I can lose my vertical stabiliser again if I try really hard.  :banana:
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Offline bagrat

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Re: Plane can't fly without Vertical Stab
« Reply #41 on: November 02, 2010, 01:35:29 AM »
It is possible more than 50% of the time.

Edit: I ought to elaborate though, your use of the word 'land' might be misleading. You certainly can't head back to the airfield of your choice. I mean it is possible to control your attitude and get down safely with a nice gentle ditch. Depends on your definition of landing, but if you could walk away safely...

I'll 2nd that, I've had my vertical stab knocked off my hurricane before from around 3k in the air. I wasn't able to rtb, but guiding her down to the ground for the ditch is definitely possible, throttle work and torque however become a major factor in maintaining control, as the engine will pull the nose left without the stab to maintain direction.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2010, 01:39:41 AM by bagrat »
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Offline mechanic

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Re: Plane can't fly without Vertical Stab
« Reply #42 on: November 02, 2010, 02:12:59 AM »
naw, vertical stab.


well between you and holmes someone better teach me the trick, I can't have people knowing things I dont know about the AH mossie! That is the only plane i thought I had fully mastered.  :cry
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Offline STEELE

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Re: Plane can't fly without Vertical Stab
« Reply #43 on: November 02, 2010, 03:55:05 AM »
Jetman.com uses his hands for vert stab and rudder, the only man to truly fly, using a small wing with 4 small turbines strapped tp his back, pretty wild stuff! The only plane I've been able to ditch w/o stab is Ki84
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Offline Charge

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Re: Plane can't fly without Vertical Stab
« Reply #44 on: November 02, 2010, 04:35:51 AM »
It is actually quite strange that from peoples observations it seems that planes that have high aspect fuselage sideways, i.e. are quite flat, are also unstable (109, P51) but Mossie which is really a cylinder is stable without a vertical stab.  ;)
I'd think that the fuselage should provide a stabilizing force by its shape which should work at least in high and moderate speeds quite effectively, but obviously in slow speed the other forces become more dominant and may lead to abrupt loss of control. Forces such as engine torque and the pressure on wings which is more destabilizing on long wings which also have more leverage and thus also need more stabilizing force as in e.g Ta152H. Basically that would mean that when you lose your vertical stab you should immediately ease back the throttle, but no to idle, to minimize the torque effect of propeller on directional stability.

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