Comparison of .50 cal Colts with .303 Brownings

[Squire]

Its nothing but fantasy to think that an air force just says "hey cool" and rearms its fighters with another weapon. The RAF did not use the .50 cal browning at the time. Plain and simple. You have the luxury of looking back with 20-20 hindsight and nitpicking through it all with a fine tooth comb making grand pronouncements of what you thought they should have done differently.

There is not a military battle or campaign in history that you could not look at and find some fault in tactics or equipment or strategy from Marathon to the Second Gulf War.




 

[bustr]

The BoB lasted 4 months. That is a very short time in any 20th century war to create a total change in armament.

By the last third of the period 20mm were being tried in a hand full of spits with the early problems related to that process. The Air Ministry lost it's naivity about the realities of the new age of warfare. Early testing convinced everyone in the 37-38 period that 8 -.303 were sufficient. In the Spanish Civil war most aircraft were using 30. cal setups held over from WW1 mentalities about air combat. So 8 -.303 had some basis via observed combat and was considered superior for the late 30's.

The early air fights from the Phoney War period to Dunkirk did not engage aircraft on any giant scale to change the Air Ministries confidence in 8 - .303. Going from multi plane running skirmishes in late 39, early 40. Then to 500+ aircraft full on air war a few months later. The BoB was a first of its kind in the history of the human race. Short of clarvoyence, they thought they had the best technology possible in the world as crap was dumped on them for only 4 MONTHS. By October both sides already knew the winter weather was going to interfere with the prosicution of the BoB and Operation Sea Lion.

Almost all of WW2 for the allies was one cluster flop after another untill they learned how to prosecute total war and had figured out the wheapons, tactics, and logistics needed to totaly dominate the Axis powers by 1945. The whole damnd thing was a collosal guessing game and learning war one life at a time like every war before it.

I can repeat the following in Swahili if you don't sprekinzy common sense:

At the time they did what they had to with what they had. The best two wheapons they brought to the table was making do with what they had brilliently and learning from thier mistakes.
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If you are not the aggressor and you still won the war. The above is the basic process by which you won it. Isreal survives to the present in the face of monumental odds because they proved that statement is a human condition truth.

[Masherbrum]

.303 was ment for shooting deer and other large game. But was used on large metal airplanes instead.

.50cal was made to shoot airplanes and lightly armored object, and was used for that.


simple. One is effective for air to air combat, the other is not.

Let me know when you want to test this theory out.

[Squire]

Bustr makes the best point so far and I will add to it;

First off the British did not possess a licence to produce the US 12.7mm Browning HB machine gun. It also had no factories to make it even if a licence would have been forthcoming from the Americans.

May 10th 1940 the Germans invade France. By late June its apparent that France is lost, and the Luftwaffe moves its bases closer to Britain. July 1940, its apparent that Britain may face invasion and an air campaign. Lets say at that point the RAF gets all its ducks in a row and decides to go with the 12.7mm, convince the Air Ministry that its needed, and gets govt approval to get the new weapon. OK. Tall order but ok, lets just say...

The British at that point have to go the United States and request several thousand 12.7mm machine guns and @ 1 million rounds of ammo. First off, the US Congress has to approve it, which takes time to do. They also might have said no. The USA was not at war with Germany at the time and only certain war materials were being shipped to Britain. Lets say they said yes. Next you need to put an order in with Browning, and have the guns produced. Next gather them up, ship them to the east coast, load them into a convoy (more like several convoys) and sail it to Britain.  At the same time you need to redesign the Hurricane and Spitfire, neither of which is designed to take 12.7mms. When the guns arrive in Britain, you send them to the factories producing or refitting the fighters and install them and then start sending the new fighters to front line units.   

...and do it all before August 1940 when Eagle Day is launched and hope that there was no delay in fighter production. Unlikely is an understatement.

[Angus]

Also bear in mind that the lend-lease agreement did not pass before AFTER the BoB, and only with marginal votes. It might not have passed before the British victory. There was simply no ground that the RAF could have mustered .50's as a standard armament before the BoB, be it politics, speed of the system, design, availability, economy, or practical application.
By the time the .50 was available to the RAF with some sense, they were diving into the Hispano, which is a far better weapon.

[SCTusk]

There was simply no ground that the RAF could have mustered .50's as a standard armament before the BoB, be it politics, speed of the system, design, availability, economy, or practical application.
By the time the .50 was available to the RAF with some sense, they were diving into the Hispano, which is a far better weapon.

I can only tell you that the author suggests that the decision to adopt the .50 cals could have been made when the two aircraft were still in the planning stage (1933) which would have allowed ample time. As someone else already mentioned the .303's were made under license in any case based on the Colt .30 cal, and the .50 cal Colt must have been visible to them at the time.  F.W. Hill, a ballistics expert, was consulted and recommended a battery of 2 .303 cals for the purpose of destroying bombers with a 2 second burst. The author presumes that Hill had little knowledge of the rapid progress being made in the design of bombers at the time, and based his findings on aircraft from an earlier period. I suppose the Few should thank the Air Staff for going with eight Brownings and not two as Hill suggested.

I can repeat the following in Swahili if you don't sprekinzy common sense:

bustr I spent a couple of years in Kenya and Uganda so yes, I do have a smattering of Swahili as it happens. Unafikiri mimi ni mjinga? Makini wakati wa kupiga kuruka. Inaweza kuwa wasp.

 

[Karnak]

SCTusk,

Why would they decided that?  The author ignores the reasons that decision was not made and instead pretends it wasn't even considered.  It was considered and dismissed.

They decided that the 20mm cannon was the next step in fighter armament due to the .50 being an inadequate increase over the .303.  I would not be surprised at all if they had expected aircraft armed with 20mm cannons to be in widespread service before 1940.

If they had been attacking bombers the entire war, the USAAF would have found the .50 inadequate and been pushed to go to larger guns.  The rare times we did face large, well protected aircraft they did the job, but not as rapidly as desirable.  We also never found ourselves attacking a raid of 1000+ H8K2s or Ju290s.

[bustr]

I can understand using swahili to not be moderated for finely saketing the line between things civil. Being angry over something that happened almost a century ago is very African.

Wasp ni nzuri ya kula. Mimi alizaliwa Morrocco.

[nrshida]

It's an interesting technical discussion but I'm sure at the time during the Battle of Britain any deficiencies of rifle-calibre armament would have been a very small detail and a low priority. I expect the shortage of pilots and aircraft was a much bigger concern. The mood in Britain would have been more of fighting for survival I think. There was at least one documented case of a Hurricane pilot deliberately ramming a German aircraft (Flight Sergeant Raymond Holmes). Another pilot aborted his bail out and returned to the seat of his burning Hurricane to shoot at a Bf110 that had flown in front of him (Flight Lieutenant James Nicholson), just as an indication of the mood of the hour.

If you read about the development of the Bf109, there came a point where they discovered the Hurricane and Spitfire was using a battery of eight machine guns and realised the armament of the 109 was too light. Thus in this context eight machine guns was considered heavy armament.

The BoB was really the first time a purely air battle was waged, and the first time the aircraft from the different factions met in anger. The capabilities of each influenced the next generation of development and so on. Perhaps had the British employed the 50 cal from the start then the Hispano would have never been employed? We could conjecture endlessly...

[Ack-Ack]

When did the Air Ministry make their decision about the 20mm?

ack-ack

[nrshida]

I think they'd decided before the BoB that the 20-mm was needed, but the development was protracted.

[RTHolmes]

There was at least one documented case of a Hurricane pilot deliberately ramming a German aircraft (Flight Sergeant Raymond Holmes).

 

[SCTusk]

I think there's an expression that covers this.... 'don't shoot the messenger'. The author, one of 'The Few', was also a student of military history. Initially I had no opinion on the issues he covers, I was mainly suprised at the difference between the .303's and the .50 cals, but on finishing the book I think the general thrust of his work is valid. No harm done if after some interesting discussion we arrive at different conclusions.

Anyway I'm sure everyone would agree that he's entitled to his opinion.

[nrshida]

Yeah Tusk, not trying to shoot you down at all, very interesting discussion. I'm not allowed a real gun so my shooting interest is confined to AH.

303 fans unite!:-

http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,300308.0/topicseen.html

[vafiii]

Never understood the Spitfire package of .303's with 20mm's? They don't seem to complement each other as the .50's and 20mm's do. Did Spitfire pilots fire all guns at once or use cannon's only with .303's in reserve if cannon's ran out?