Author Topic: Me110G-2, Me410 and Mosquito Mk.VI maximum speeds.  (Read 11799 times)

Offline bozon

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Re: Me110G-2, Me410 and Mosquito Mk.VI maximum speeds.
« Reply #75 on: April 18, 2011, 03:14:46 AM »
You can't mention CD without factoring in frontal area to arrive at CX.
What is CX?
Mosquito VI - twice the spitfire, four times the ENY.

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Offline RTHolmes

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Re: Me110G-2, Me410 and Mosquito Mk.VI maximum speeds.
« Reply #76 on: April 18, 2011, 04:03:10 AM »
another fairly random thought on the mossie's aerodynamics: Ive always wondered if the mossies engine pods act as anti-shock bodies, they certainly look like they could. could it be that the design conforms to the area rule to some degree just by coincedence? or is the mossie not quite fast enough for wave drag to be an issue?

 :headscratch:
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Offline bozon

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Re: Me110G-2, Me410 and Mosquito Mk.VI maximum speeds.
« Reply #77 on: April 18, 2011, 06:23:32 AM »
Ive always wondered if the mossies engine pods act as anti-shock bodies, they certainly look like they could.
I remember something from Sharp & Bowyer about the extended engine pods being modified and extended during development. I'll have to dig it up and look for the reason.
Mosquito VI - twice the spitfire, four times the ENY.

Click!>> "So, you want to fly the wooden wonder" - <<click!
the almost incomplete and not entirely inaccurate guide to the AH Mosquito.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGOWswdzGQs

Offline Scherf

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Re: Me110G-2, Me410 and Mosquito Mk.VI maximum speeds.
« Reply #78 on: April 18, 2011, 06:29:31 AM »
Nacelles were extended back past the line of the trailing edge early on to cure some tail buffet, though some very early examples entered service with the original short nacelles.

Later models had nacelles which exteded further forwards due to the intercoolers on the two-stage (high-altitude) Merlins.
... missions were to be met by the commitment of alerted swarms of fighters, composed of Me 109's and Fw 190's, that were strategically based to protect industrial installations. The inferior capabilities of these fighters against the Mosquitoes made this a hopeless and uneconomical effort. 1.JD KTB

Offline mthrockmor

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Re: Me110G-2, Me410 and Mosquito Mk.VI maximum speeds.
« Reply #79 on: April 18, 2011, 06:33:49 AM »
This thread is getting me all excited about the 410. Great questions and discussion though. Since I am not anything related to an engineer...great introduction to concepts.

So when do we get the 410? And is the P-61 next?

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Offline Krusty

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Re: Me110G-2, Me410 and Mosquito Mk.VI maximum speeds.
« Reply #80 on: April 18, 2011, 09:25:08 AM »
2 weeks after HTC decides to add it.

Offline Stoney

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Re: Me110G-2, Me410 and Mosquito Mk.VI maximum speeds.
« Reply #81 on: April 18, 2011, 10:07:17 AM »
another fairly random thought on the mossie's aerodynamics: Ive always wondered if the mossies engine pods act as anti-shock bodies, they certainly look like they could. could it be that the design conforms to the area rule to some degree just by coincedence? or is the mossie not quite fast enough for wave drag to be an issue?

 :headscratch:

At sea level, not fast enough for wave drag to be an issue.  At altitude, maybe a little, but as long as you're slower than about .7 mach, you can, for the most part, exclude wave drag entirely.  That being said, it might be worth it to do an analysis where you break out the induced drag just so you can isolate the total difference between the two Cd0.  But, looking at the shape of the 410 fuselage, the nose has to be a huge drag (pun intended) on the Cd0 of the airframe.

Also, if the prop efficiency on the Mossy is estimated at 80-82% as Scherf's diagram shows, there could be some slop in the Cd0 they came up with if the actual numbers differed--maybe not a lot, but some.
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Offline Wmaker

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Re: Me110G-2, Me410 and Mosquito Mk.VI maximum speeds.
« Reply #82 on: April 18, 2011, 01:02:37 PM »
I thought you'd be using that chart. That one confuses me, as the peak power output is lower, and the altitude at which it develops it higher, than what I've read otherwise.

Try your calculation with this one:

.jpg" class="bbc_link" target="_blank">http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/wiki/index.php/Image:Merlin_25_and_23_Power_Curves .jpg

Shows 1610 or 1615 or so for the Merlin 25 at sea level.

You should also have a look at this document:

_Book_AVIA_28-3030_.jpg" class="bbc_link" target="_blank">http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/wiki/index.php/Image:The_Aircraft_Performance_Data _Book_AVIA_28-3030_.jpg

Shows a Coefficient of drag for the Mosquito F.II (outwardly identical to the FB.VI) of 0.0224.

(Tosses head, bats eyes, "Honestly, I don't know why I upload these things if people aren't going to use theh.")

My little daughter would like to say  ":banana: and  :rock from Daddy."

Thank you very much Scherf you certainly didn't post those in vain! :)

With those power outputs the Cd is starting to get closer of that Cd0 in your document. I got 0,02122. I'm thinking that some of the difference is probably in the exhaust thrust because I used DB's exhaust thrust figures for the Merlin. Merlin probably has higher exhaust thrust than DB due to the fact that it burns more fuel at higher boost pressures. Call me crazy but I remember reading from somewhere that Spit 14's Griffon 61 produced something like 12kg of thrust per cylinder? I just can't for the life of me find it now that I tried to search for it. :headscratch: Reducing that Griffon's thrust to suit the Merlin's power output would bring the Cd sightly over that 0.0224 Cdo-figure and would mean we should be in the ball park...
« Last Edit: April 18, 2011, 04:00:35 PM by Wmaker »
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Offline Scherf

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Re: Me110G-2, Me410 and Mosquito Mk.VI maximum speeds.
« Reply #83 on: April 18, 2011, 03:50:12 PM »
Heya,

No worries, glad we're in the ballpark on the Mossie.

Now, for the 410...

The 0.84 WMakeris referring to for prop efficiency was used in a separate test, on the Mossie prototype, and the relevant docco specifies "the Lock-Bufton method" was used to calculate it.
... missions were to be met by the commitment of alerted swarms of fighters, composed of Me 109's and Fw 190's, that were strategically based to protect industrial installations. The inferior capabilities of these fighters against the Mosquitoes made this a hopeless and uneconomical effort. 1.JD KTB

Offline dtango

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Re: Me110G-2, Me410 and Mosquito Mk.VI maximum speeds.
« Reply #84 on: April 18, 2011, 06:15:54 PM »
Hi moot:

Your picture doesn’t quite describe what I explained.  1) The boundary layer doesn’t usually separate & re-attach like you’ve drawn it (though it can in certain situations but that’s another story!).  2) Turbulent flow in the boundary is different from boundary layer flow separation from the surface.

Let’s sharpen our understanding.

Adverse Pressure Gradients:
When air flows around a cambered object it will accelerate & decelerate in relationship to the objects shape.  Here’s a diagram to illustrate:



In the above diagram we can see where air accelerates & decelerates around a shape.  Where the airflow decelerates there must be a region of increasing pressure.  This region is known as an adverse pressure gradient.

Adverse pressure gradients are greatly influenced by an object’s shape.  The shape determines the amount of fluid velocity increase & decrease and where the peak pressure or transition from decreasing to increasing pressure begins.  Here’s another diagram to demonstrate:



We have 3 airfoils compared.  The right-hand graph is a plot of pressure (Cp) vs. % of chord length (x/c) for all 3 airfoils.  Annotated on the graph is also where the transition point between laminar to turbulent flow occurs. 

We see the Cp curve goes up and then comes down toward the trailing edge for each airfoil.  Where the curve descends & all the way to the trailing edge is the adverse pressure gradient.  The downward slope of the curve is the degree of adverse pressure gradient; the steeper it is the greater the adverse pressure gradient.

The blue airfoil shape is thicker & more curved near the leading edge.  Note on the Cp chart this results in a long, steep adverse pressure gradient compared to the others.  Also note that the laminar to turbulent flow transition point is much further up toward the leading edge as well.  These are all direct result of the airfoil shape.  Why is all this important? 

Parasite Drag:
Parasite drag consists of two fundamental components:
1) skin friction drag &
2) pressure drag 

Skin friction drag is strongly related to boundary layer turbulent flow.  Pressure drag results from boundary layer separation.  Both turbulent flow formation (skin friction increase) & boundary layer separation (pressure drag) are strong functions of the adverse pressure gradient.

The Me410 has a similar conceptual shape like the blue airfoil above.  The forward section of the Me410 fuselage has a large radius of curvature around the nose & cockpit & then tapers off.  Like the blue airfoil it creates an adverse pressure gradient which moves the turbulent flow transition point closer toward the leading edge / nose of the aircraft.  This results in more turbulent flow along the length of the fuselage which increases skin friction drag. 

The adverse pressure gradient is also steep & long meaning the boundary layer will tend to separate earlier along the fuselage.  Earlier separation of the boundary layer results in increased pressure drag. 

I speculate these factors conspire to increase the parasite drag due to the shape of the adverse pressure gradient.  Understand this is just an educated guess on my part, but a guess no less on why we are seeing the Me410 with a calculated drag coefficient we are from published performance numbers.  I’d have to do some fancy maths with panel codes & the like to better estimate.

Loose Ends:
A couple of loose ends to tie up you asked about in your post: a) pressure peak placement, b) motorcycle rider analogy.

Yes pressure peak placement toward the trailing edge will help reduce parasite drag but it comes with a big trade off with other key variables such as degraded lift, etc.  There's no free lunch in aero :).

As for the motorcycle analogy with the rider tucking, it's similar but not the same.  In that instance the tucking of the rider is drastically reducing pressure drag for having a blunt shape in the oncoming wind.  We're talking about smooth bodies here and how the pressure gradient is affected by the shape of the smooth body.   
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Offline dtango

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Re: Me110G-2, Me410 and Mosquito Mk.VI maximum speeds.
« Reply #85 on: April 18, 2011, 06:45:45 PM »
Quote
Pressure distribution follows the curvature (camber) of the shape in the air-flow.  Where camber increases pressure tends to increase.  Where camber decreases pressure decreases.    Peak pressure occurs where fluid flow velocity is the highest.  Pressure increases up to the point of peak pressure (following the increase in camber of the shape).  But after the peak pressure point pressure decreases until it reaches the pressure of free-stream airflow at the trailing edge of the shape.

For clarification & correction- I posted the above statements in my original post in this thread.  It reads inaccurately.  Actual pressure decreases, reaches the peak, & then increases.  The reason I stated it the way I did is because Cp curves are usually graphed upside down like the Cp curves posted above where the y-axis gets more negative the higher up you go.  Confusing aerospeek.
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Offline Scherf

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Re: Me110G-2, Me410 and Mosquito Mk.VI maximum speeds.
« Reply #86 on: April 18, 2011, 08:54:10 PM »
I see from the various documents that the DB603 was designed for B4 fuel.

What say you Experten? Did it carry on with B4, or was the 603 capable of using C3? Did it do so?
... missions were to be met by the commitment of alerted swarms of fighters, composed of Me 109's and Fw 190's, that were strategically based to protect industrial installations. The inferior capabilities of these fighters against the Mosquitoes made this a hopeless and uneconomical effort. 1.JD KTB

Offline moot

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Re: Me110G-2, Me410 and Mosquito Mk.VI maximum speeds.
« Reply #87 on: April 18, 2011, 09:49:55 PM »
603 is listed in Mankau as having a C3, and C3+MW50 variant.  The book is >< this close from saying they were never fitted operationally.  They're described as preproduction ..  And the 410 A&B both are listed as using plain -A engines almost everywhere.  Even in the May 15th 1944 "operational & planned variants" (not a real quote, just my gist) pamphlet at the end of the Petrick/Stocker book.

.edit..  there was one retrofit:  603-G superchargers retro'd on -A's.
No post-hoc reports but planned as: 140 retrofits for June 44, 240 for July, and nothing after that since in Sept the Me 410 was canned.  It was planned to be built with the 603E from that month on.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2011, 09:55:46 PM by moot »
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Offline Scherf

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Re: Me110G-2, Me410 and Mosquito Mk.VI maximum speeds.
« Reply #88 on: April 18, 2011, 10:08:53 PM »
Thanks for that, it's what I figured. IIRC the 410-B ended up with the same engines as the 410-A, despite plans for a 1900 hp (PS?) powerplant. I guess it was stuck with that bloody B4 stuff.

Tempted to say "it's a shame ... " but....
... missions were to be met by the commitment of alerted swarms of fighters, composed of Me 109's and Fw 190's, that were strategically based to protect industrial installations. The inferior capabilities of these fighters against the Mosquitoes made this a hopeless and uneconomical effort. 1.JD KTB

Offline moot

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Re: Me110G-2, Me410 and Mosquito Mk.VI maximum speeds.
« Reply #89 on: April 18, 2011, 10:33:01 PM »
It wasn't a shame but it is a shame :D  hehe

For future ref.. A dedicated engine book might correct this but I reckon there isn't much to get wrong:

DB 603
First proposed Sep. '36
Contract voided by RLM March '37
Development continued on company dime, makes it to test bench in '39; RLM changes its mind
New contract for 120 units Feb '40
Full scale prod in '41

then: "Since the Me 209, 309, and He 177B never materialized and the 410 and Do 217 ceased production in '44, in fall '44 the situation arose whereby there was temporarily no suitable taker for the DB 603 [...]"  So that leaves little room for the Me 410 being produced/mass-equipped with anything but variants of the 603.
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