Author Topic: He-177 Greif  (Read 2135 times)

Offline Wagger

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 824
He-177 Greif
« on: November 24, 2010, 04:13:00 PM »
This fits into this forum or the Wish list.  I would like to see the He-177 become part of the plane list in AH.  If I remember right it was being worked on from about 1939-1945 with approximately 1,100 produced.  The following is a excerpt from the War Diaries of the 534th Squadron, 381 Bomber Group (Hvy).

9. The aircraft bomber assembly plant of E. Heinkel in Oranienburg, Germany is designated as the primary target.  Assembled here are He 177’s.  This target is located just north of Berlin.  Target area was bombed with results being unobserved due to cloud cover.  There was intense anti-aircraft fire but no fighter opposition.  There were no claims and no losses.  Those participating are listed below: Lt. Hytinen, Lt. Freese, Lt. Kuhl, Lt. Muchway, Lt. Williams, Lt. Dickey, Lt. Myers and Lt. Miller.  1st Lt. Edward A. Klein completed his 25th bomber mission over enemy occupied territory this date.  He holds the Air Medal, 3 Oak Leaf Clusters and the DFC.  S/Sgt. Asa R. Burch and T/Sgt. George M. Lemos also completed their tour of duty.  Both men hold the Air Medal, 3 Oak Leafs and the DFC.

Good information.  Someone thought it was important enough to target.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2010, 04:31:10 PM by Wagger »

Offline DEECONX

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1502
Re: He-177 Greif
« Reply #1 on: November 24, 2010, 04:25:01 PM »
From a quick glance at wikipedia (so take it as you will) I get this:

The Heinkel He 177 Greif (Griffin) was a long-range bomber of the Luftwaffe. This troubled aircraft was the only heavy bomber built in large numbers by Germany during World War II. Luftwaffe aircrew nicknamed it the Luftwaffenfeuerzeug (Luftwaffe's lighter) or the "Flaming Coffin" due to serious engine problems on the initial versions of the aircraft.[2] When these problems were later rectified the type was successful, but could not be deployed in numbers due to Germany's deteriorating situation in the war.


But again, that is Wikipedia. Would like to see more German Iron in skies, so unless someone can give sound reason as to why not (other than more important aircraft needed) then I wouldnt mind seeing it.

Offline Wagger

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 824
Re: He-177 Greif
« Reply #2 on: November 24, 2010, 04:48:18 PM »
True it had a trouble history but it would give the axis forces a representation in the heavy bomber category.  Besides it was produced in numbers similar to or greater than the Brewster. 

Offline Ack-Ack

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 25260
      • FlameWarriors
Re: He-177 Greif
« Reply #3 on: November 24, 2010, 05:02:24 PM »
The engine problems are a moot point when it comes to AH as those things aren't modeled.

ack-ack
"If Jesus came back as an airplane, he would be a P-38." - WW2 P-38 pilot
Elite Top Aces +1 Mexican Official Squadron Song

Offline Karnak

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 23047
Re: He-177 Greif
« Reply #4 on: November 24, 2010, 05:19:39 PM »
It would need to be perked in AH.  Payload of a Lancaster, defensive guns of a B-17 and speed of a Ki-67.

Well, just a bit behind in each category.
Petals floating by,
      Drift through my woman's hand,
             As she remembers me-

Offline Slade

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1848
Re: He-177 Greif
« Reply #5 on: November 24, 2010, 06:40:22 PM »
What a great addition this would make.

+1
-- Flying as X15 --

Offline Krusty

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 26745
Re: He-177 Greif
« Reply #6 on: November 24, 2010, 06:46:44 PM »
Your mistake is in thinking "Germany needs a heavy bomber!"

It really was mainly used as a test platform for various guided missiles and glider bombs.


Let's put it this way, about the same number of Me410s were made, but they saw a heckuva lot more use than the He177s did.

Offline Ack-Ack

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 25260
      • FlameWarriors
Re: He-177 Greif
« Reply #7 on: November 24, 2010, 06:53:04 PM »
Your mistake is in thinking "Germany needs a heavy bomber!"

It really was mainly used as a test platform for various guided missiles and glider bombs.


Let's put it this way, about the same number of Me410s were made, but they saw a heckuva lot more use than the He177s did.

The only thing that prevented wide spread use was the lack of parts and fuel, not because the He 177 was a bad aircraft.  The RAF found the He 177 to be rather impressive when they got to testing on He 177A-5 and the long range A-7 model after the war. 

ack-ack
"If Jesus came back as an airplane, he would be a P-38." - WW2 P-38 pilot
Elite Top Aces +1 Mexican Official Squadron Song

Offline Krusty

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 26745
Re: He-177 Greif
« Reply #8 on: November 24, 2010, 06:56:08 PM »
Many folks also thought the Ta152 and Do335 were quite impressive :)

Consider the P1Y1 Francis was made in the numbers over 1000 but saw almost no use in Japan, horded for the eventual US invasion force and planned to use as kamikaze.

Not drawing direct correlary, just saying whatever the reasons the He177 saw little real combat. Training, testbeds, teething problems... 1000 planes isn't really that much in the closing days of Nazi Germany.



Don't get me wrong, nothing to sneeze at, but it's a plane AH doesn't really need. Historically for any setup it's not needed, saw little service. In the MA you have every nation's bombers to fly and again is not needed.

There are bigger fish to fry.

Offline bustr

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 12436
Re: He-177 Greif
« Reply #9 on: November 24, 2010, 10:21:56 PM »
The only fish we have to fry in this ideot cartoon game are the ones HiTech pulls out of the freezer and throws at us. After all these years, bigger fish to fry... :rolleyes: You say that like Aces High makes policy for the U.N. and China waits with it's breath on hold for Aces High to break wind.

If thats true, what are my six numbers for this saturdays Super Lotto Plus here in california? I have a greater chance of winning with your pick of numbers than any of us have of influenceing which frozen fish HiTech clobbers us with next.

But, with your time in grade and social position in this forum it's a good way to influence the next voting round for any upcoming aircraft because that phrase just sounds so dern offical. Newer players will remember your knowlegable comments about the right planes to vote for in the future rather than go do their own research.

I bet once you get the aircraft you want, if it's a stinker, you'll make everyone think it's ack-acks fault because everyone just loves to hate on him anyway....... :)
bustr - POTW 1st Wing


This is like the old joke that voters are harsher to their beer brewer if he has an outage, than their politicians after raising their taxes. Death and taxes are certain but, fun and sex is only now.

Offline Krusty

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 26745
Re: He-177 Greif
« Reply #10 on: November 25, 2010, 01:39:02 AM »
Troll much?

Offline Wmaker

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5743
      • Lentolaivue 34 website
Re: He-177 Greif
« Reply #11 on: November 25, 2010, 02:17:16 AM »
It would need to be perked in AH.  Payload of a Lancaster, defensive guns of a B-17 and speed of a Ki-67.

Well, just a bit behind in each category.



- At 6173lbs, the max. payload is almost the same as B-17s. There are higher figures listed but none even approach Lanc's 14k.

- While 20mm cannon in the tail is formiddable armament, the MG131s are totally inferior to .50cals, Also, the ventral armament consists of only one MG131 in similar position as the MG81Z on the Ju-88, no ventral turrets.

- Ki-67 does ~334mph at 20k in the game. He-177 has a top speed of 273mph for the He177A-5/R2 at 19685ft. That's a 61mph difference. (More on the speed below)

Source: Griel's and Dressel's He177, 277, 274.


There's no more reason to perk He177 than there is to perk any of the heavy bombers in AH.

EDIT/Some additional comments regarding the speed...

I do have to say that Griel's and Dressel's figures seemed low:

That's ~340mph max. speed on that chart.

He177A-5/R7 on the other hand is listed having top speed of 323mph./EDIT

« Last Edit: November 25, 2010, 03:29:57 AM by Wmaker »
Wmaker
Lentolaivue 34

Thank you for the Brewster HTC!

Offline MiloMorai

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6864
Re: He-177 Greif
« Reply #12 on: November 25, 2010, 05:00:30 AM »
quote from 'Heinkel 177, 277 274' by Manfred Griehel and Joachim Dressel, ISBN 1 85310 364 0, containing a German wartime report on He-177

In May 1944 Major Schubert of the Luftwaffengeneralstab and Reichsmarschall Goring's Adjutancy was finally appointed to establish the principal reasons for the delays experienced in re- equipping Luftwaffe bomber units with the He 177. Nothing needs to be added to his report:

Most of the aircrew of units selected for re- equipment with the He 177 were operationally 'tired-out' and relatively few were from front-line units. The necessary personnel consisted primarily of Young, often inexperienced aircrews, and for reasons of capacity their conversion training at operational training and replacement Gruppen could only be completed in relatively few cases. Most of the young pilots had only nine to 12 months of practical flying experience prior to being transferred to such a complicated aircraft as the He 177.

Apart from that, the new operational crews had been trained on the Ju 88, and most had hardly any training in the art of night-flying. The necessary conversion training meant the compulsory withdrawal of operational He 177s for use as trainers, which in turn led to an overload of work for the technical personnel due to the numerous instances of damage suffered by these aircraft as a result of the training activities.

Matters were made all the more difficult by the fact that some of the ground personnel had not been pre-instructed on the He 177. In addition, the vast majority of the technical personnel arrived at their He 177-equipped bomber Gruppen several months after the units had first received their re- equipment orders. By spring 1944, some units were still short of about 50 per cent of engine fitters. Some of the other personnel first set eyes on the He 177 upon arrival at their assigned unit's airfield, their instruction and training on the Heinkel bomber having to start there and then.

The supply of aircraft servicing tools and appliances also did not keep up with deliveries of He 177s. Thus, for instance, the wing attachment cranes needed to facilitate powerplant changes arrived several months after the delivery of the aircraft themselves, and even then they were too few in number. For IV/KG 1 there was no specialised engine-changing equipment at all, and for this reason the unit had to suspend all training activities in mid-April 1944.

The 'engine circulation' (service units - repair depots - service units) also did not flow as it should have done at first, because of a lack of transportation. Neither the supply of new engines nor the return of DB 606/610s in need of repair functioned properly, least of all the supply of exchange powerplants to individual airfields. It wasn't until April 1944 that these shortcomings were effectively overcome, but they were never fully eradicated.

According to Major Schubert, the time expenditure required for the maintenance and servicing of the He 177 was incomparable with that of any other operational aircraft in service with the Luftwaffe. The jacking-up operation to change the main undercarriage tyres alone (which had to done at least twice as frequently as on other aircraft types) lasted some 2fi hours using the prescribed mechanical spindle blocks. Yet by early summer 1944 far too few of these 12-ton spindle blocks recommended by the manufacturer were available to He 177-equipped units.

The layout of the powerplants too did not exactly help attempts to carry out the necessary servicing work. Because of the inaccessibility of the coupled engines their dismounting took considerably longer than similar work on, for example, the Ju 88 or He 111. Due to the low training level of the technicians, a 25-hour control check on the He 177 usually took two, sometimes even three days.

Criticism was also made of the airfields selected to receive the He 177. Apart from Aalborg in Denmark, all of the others were already completely overcrowded, and lacked the potential for dispersal, camouflage and suitable protection of their aircraft against bomb splinters and shrapnel. For this reason low-level attacks by Allied aircraft caused great losses amongst the He 177s parked out in the open from 1944 onwards, especially as the airfields were now constantly within the range of both fighters and bombers. To make matters worse, this vulnerability to attack had a knock-on effect on He 177 training activities, which sometimes had to be reduced by up to per cent because enemy aircraft were on their way and air raid warnings came into force.

No consideration had been given to the fact that the technically complex He 177 required sufficient hangar space for maintenance and repair purposes, especially during the winter months. The delays caused by this shortcoming alone may well have been responsible for the postponement of He 177 operations by some six months to a year.

Offline Scherf

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3409
Re: He-177 Greif
« Reply #13 on: November 25, 2010, 06:05:49 AM »


- At 6173lbs, the max. payload is almost the same as B-17s. There are higher figures listed but none even approach Lanc's 14k.

- While 20mm cannon in the tail is formiddable armament, the MG131s are totally inferior to .50cals, Also, the ventral armament consists of only one MG131 in similar position as the MG81Z on the Ju-88, no ventral turrets.

- Ki-67 does ~334mph at 20k in the game. He-177 has a top speed of 273mph for the He177A-5/R2 at 19685ft. That's a 61mph difference. (More on the speed below)

Source: Griel's and Dressel's He177, 277, 274.


There's no more reason to perk He177 than there is to perk any of the heavy bombers in AH.

EDIT/Some additional comments regarding the speed...

I do have to say that Griel's and Dressel's figures seemed low:
(Image removed from quote.)
That's ~340mph max. speed on that chart.

He177A-5/R7 on the other hand is listed having top speed of 323mph./EDIT



Did it have Notleistung? Would be faster again.
... missions were to be met by the commitment of alerted swarms of fighters, composed of Me 109's and Fw 190's, that were strategically based to protect industrial installations. The inferior capabilities of these fighters against the Mosquitoes made this a hopeless and uneconomical effort. 1.JD KTB

Offline Karnak

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 23047
Re: He-177 Greif
« Reply #14 on: November 25, 2010, 08:46:50 AM »
Wmaker,

The loadouts that people always give it when they ask for it are 12,000-13,000lbs.  Slightly less than the Lancaster while being much faster and having much better defensive guns.
Petals floating by,
      Drift through my woman's hand,
             As she remembers me-