Author Topic: Why the Hordes?  (Read 23766 times)

Offline 321BAR

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Re: Why the Hordes?
« Reply #150 on: January 04, 2011, 01:24:01 AM »
Whatever you say square.

i gotta ask melvin. how long have you played this game? im too lazy to look up in the score listings
« Last Edit: January 04, 2011, 01:25:43 AM by 321BAR »
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Offline Melvin

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Re: Why the Hordes?
« Reply #151 on: January 04, 2011, 01:24:55 AM »
I think I signed up 1 year ago at Christmas time.
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Offline 321BAR

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Re: Why the Hordes?
« Reply #152 on: January 04, 2011, 01:31:13 AM »
I think I signed up 1 year ago at Christmas time.
youll soon realize that dueling means nothing in this game. Many of the 3 year+ vets duel for the fun. not for the satisfaction. So if you wish to duel in that form keep trying in the dueling arena or look for chest thumpers here. Although i will admit one thing and that is that the DA is a cesspool of chest thumping people who if flew one day in the MAs wouldnt stand a chance. This argument could have stayed more cordial if you left the mockery out at the beginning bud :aok

You'll notice alot more in this game in a year or two. All 3 sides are the same (whether people admit it or not) with their base takers, their noobs, their score players, their furballers, and their crap talkers, etc. And that how you play really doesnt matter in the end as long as you have fun and try not to walk all over others. <S> sir
« Last Edit: January 04, 2011, 01:35:39 AM by 321BAR »
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Offline Melvin

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Re: Why the Hordes?
« Reply #153 on: January 04, 2011, 01:50:41 AM »
Money talks.

B.S. walks.

Hope you got comfortable boots.






This right here is the problem.

For all the blow and bluster from this kid, he still won't go to the DA and beat up on a noob like me.

Poor BAR, destined to a life of hiding in the horde. Never to break free and fly like the eagle that he really is.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2011, 01:53:52 AM by Melvin »
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Offline 321BAR

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Re: Why the Hordes?
« Reply #154 on: January 04, 2011, 05:03:11 AM »
Money talks.

B.S. walks.

Hope you got comfortable boots.






This right here is the problem.

For all the blow and bluster from this kid, he still won't go to the DA and beat up on a noob like me.

Poor BAR, destined to a life of hiding in the horde. Never to break free and fly like the eagle that he really is.
im sorry but it seems you dont realize that chest thumping like what you are doing with me doesnt matter to me :aok i know my skills. i also know that i can kill you over and over again nonstop if i wanted to. i dont just live in a horde bud. i also dont just live alone. ive played on this game for almost 7 years and command a squad of who i could call some of the finest people ive met in a long time and whether their skill is good or bad doesnt matter to me. now heres where i break from what i have said before. you're completely below my level :rofl


Edit: Blow and bluster? :rofl its the truth. its a game and always will be. live and let live with the styles of gameplay. what does it matter how another person plays? if you have a problem with the way they play then play differently yourself. Blow and bluster :rofl now i realize that you just want to win this argument (which you never did) and/or show a veteran of this game up. Which, by the way is kind of funny.

Third off. you think money talks? yeah thats the way to live... shows that you deserve disrespectful remarks. I live in a low income family. $15 is great for me. I honestly could care less about money and what am i B.S.ing about? :lol

and dont call me kid. from what you just wrote, it shows everyone to read this from now on that you are either an immature child or immature adult and god help us all if its the second. You want respect? earn it. You want to show people up? find someone who actually would listen to you because im tired of you.

Back to what i was saying earlier. YOURE TROLLING

And if you honestly think i am a bad pilot? ask around... I'm not the best and know that but i'm 100% sure you'd lose any 1 vs 1 against me. Good luck finding me in the MAs because im not going to DA you over your glorious prideful insights and ignorance.

This is where i end my discussion with you entirely. mock me all you want melvin. i dont care anymore :aok
« Last Edit: January 04, 2011, 06:44:26 AM by 321BAR »
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Offline NCLawman

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Re: Why the Hordes?
« Reply #155 on: January 04, 2011, 07:21:10 AM »
:loltralfz. honestly out of everything i was trying to say, its a game. its always been a game, and always will be. .....  you also realize that if someone threw a stick of dynamite in the river you wouldnt be staying there long right? it is your choice what to teach others. I would not teach my kids (that i dont have yet) that it is right to do that. But i wouldnt approach the person doing it either. It would cause problems for me that are not worth it (most likely with me being shot by an insane man). I would bring my children to another lake to fish and leave the insane man alone :aok

The isnt a lack of sportsmanship in this game. BECAUSE IT ISNT A SPORT! it is a war simulation.

I also teach my squad that it is a game. And that having fun trumps all other things here. Everyone has their own opinion of what fun is. By whining at others for trying to have fun in their own way is just showing them you have disrespect for them and that you consider them bad for what they are doing.


1.  On your first point, you are correct it is a game.  And with any GAME there is sportsmanship (or gamesmanship if you prefer the vernacular).  How you play a game is directly relevant to the game itself and those that play it.  

2.  As your or teaching comments.... there is more to teaching that just NOT saying something is wrong.  Why would you not teach your children that it is wrong to 'throw dynamite'?  By your illustration, what you have taught is to not take any personal responsibility and just go some where else.  You have let SOMEONE ELSE run you off from where you wanted to be.  I encounter this everyday.  People want safe communities, they want a drug and gang free neighborhood, but when authorities need information or assistance we get, "I don't want to get involved."  Well, you can't have it both ways.  Nothing in this life is free.  You must pay some cost either fiscal or personal, but the cost must be paid by someone.  Now am I really suggesting your confront every armed dynamite throwing lunatic?  No, my point is rather than 'just go somewhere else' be a part of fixing the problem.  Take some responsibility for the community in which you participate and correct things that are amiss.

3.  To your sportsmanship remark.... I refer back to point 1.  You were correct first when you said it is a game.  This is NOT war simulation.  If we played the game exactly as we do now, but changed the graphics to Mario's riding clouds and throwing mushrooms, would this still be a "War Simulation?"  IRL, war means death and destruction.  AH people do not really die.  IRL, wars are fought with limited resources to include, money, guns, people, ships, planes, tanks, and food.  When was the last time you sat in on an AH Budget planning session?  When was the last time that you went to the hanger in AH and found it EMPTY?   You were 100% correct when you said, "ITS A GAME".  Lets call a duck a duck... AH is a game.  There is nothing WAR about it.  And, because it is a game, there is gamesmanship.  We have all paid for the right to be here.  That makes it a community.  As a community, we set our own morals and standards.  If you teach those standards, then the community thrives.  Failure to teach standards turns us into mob and eventually the MOB will DIE OUT.  (ie... no more AH)

4.  You said you teach "HAVING FUN TRUMPS ALL".  Really?  Is that what we have become?  A group of "I only care about my own personal instant gratification?"  It is a game and it should be fun.  Just like football is a game and should be fun.  It would be fun for me to score a touchdown on every play.  To that end, I have decided that everytime I am about to be tackled, I am going to pull out a gun and shoot the opposing player -- now I can score every play!  Won't that be fun!  Yes, that is an extreme example; but, the point is made.  It is about fun, but it is not just about YOUR OWN satisfaction.

Clearly, you are set in your ways, and I don't expect anything I say here to make any major life altering decisions for you.  But I would encourage you to think about what has been posted here.  The attitudes you express go far beyond just being in AH.  I would submit that they are not only unhealthy for AH, but can be an unhealthy life philosophy.  Forget AH for a second.  Take a stand. Don't let 'dynamite guy' force you to go somewhere else.  If it is your pond to fish, then fish it.  If 'dynamite guy' blows up all the fish in that pond, where are you going to fish next week?  We all have a right to fish in the pond.  The key is to NOT let one person take all the fish.  We have to protect that pond so that we can all ALL continue to enjoy it.  That takes responsibility and it takes action of some sort.

and, that brings us back to Fugi's original post....   why not teach new players and squads to break up the monster horde?  Why not teach new players NOT to HO.  How much more fun would they have if they learned long term skills rather than short term self-gratification?  It is a matter of mindset NOT code changes.

With Respect,    :salute

Jeff

 :cheers:
« Last Edit: January 04, 2011, 07:24:17 AM by NCLawman »
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Offline Oldman731

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Re: Why the Hordes?
« Reply #156 on: January 04, 2011, 08:02:07 AM »
i know my skills. i also know that i can kill you over and over again nonstop if i wanted to.

Heh.  Well, perhaps you should just go thrash the lad then, teach him to talk back to his elders.

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Offline remy1dog

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Re: Why the Hordes?
« Reply #157 on: January 04, 2011, 08:28:37 AM »
i have my money on bar.

Offline HawkerMKII

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Re: Why the Hordes?
« Reply #158 on: January 04, 2011, 09:15:19 AM »
Instead of us trading barbs on the BBS, I call you out to the DA right now sir.



I demand satisfaction.


01:30 CST. Be there or be square.


This to me is worse than HO'ing, vulching, picking, camping.........DA does not and will never ever prove anything... wanna DA!!!!!!!!!! :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl.......my cartoon plane is better than your cartoon plane :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
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Offline The Fugitive

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Re: Why the Hordes?
« Reply #159 on: January 04, 2011, 10:04:04 AM »
Ok now that the children have stopped yelling can we get back on topic?  :)

NClawman, I agree with what your saying. Why can't people play with more sportsmanship/gamesmanship? Everyone can still fight in fighters, GVs, land grabbing, win the war. Would it hurt to take a moment to look at the missions and say "what would it be like if this was thrown at me?". - hope we get some answers from Crash and wiley as to the questions I asked. I'm very interested in their point of view

Offline Wiley

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Re: Why the Hordes?
« Reply #160 on: January 04, 2011, 12:42:44 PM »
OK so what we've come up with so far is that the horde is pretty much a "social behavior". Safety in numbers, the feeling of accomplishment for those that don't have a lot of accomplishment on their own. The flying with others to make friends, and the drive to win no matter the consequences.

That's in the vicinity of how I see it.  I don't really think most hordelings think in terms of 'safety' but more in terms of 'ability to push the enemy around'.  I think that's a somewhat important distinction.

Wiley, a question to you. If your ingame name is Wiley, it shows you have been here less than a year, but not much less.

Yup, that's me.  I was playing Warbirds fairly heavily since new year's 2007 until I came over here.  So it's not precisely that I started cold and showed no improvement, more along the lines of my ACM and fighting ability is somewhat plateaued, and it was just me learning the flight models over here, and how to deal with more than 60 people in an arena at once. <g>

From your comments it looks like you like hordes, at least being in one, I don't know many people who like getting trampled by one  :D .

I like hordes, when two of them meet.  I don't enjoy being part of the flock of seagulls shouting 'Mine!  Mine!' as ten of them swoop in on the single red dot in the sector, I avoid that as a rule.  If I'm trying to help take a base, I'll help vulc-er... suppress enemy activity if need be, but I don't obsessively patrol the runway, nor do I chest thump when I do it. <g>

Where I get my jollies is flying with a few wingmen and trying to engage multiple enemy cons, with the group getting kills and RTBing if I'm able.  Now I'm not talking about 10 of my closest buddies swarming one guy.  My ideal fight is me and five or six squaddies with me, going into a fight with 6 or more bad guys, trying to kill them all, and everybody getting home safe.  It's rare such a thing occurs, we generally wind up either at the outside edge of a friendly horde, or the outside edge of an enemy horde.

I generally fly with survival in mind, which means I rarely get slow in the MA.  My main rides are all models of the Corsair and the P47D models, but I often hop into other planes depending on my mood.  Guys that think the only way to 'fight' is 1v1 dueling would classify my style as 'timid', but usually I'm just working the crowd trying to survive.  Sometimes it results in me clubbing baby seals, sometimes it results in me getting mobbed and killed, usually it's somewhere in between.

Do you feel you are getting all you can out of the game?

It depends what context you mean that question in.  I believe I get my $15 a month in entertainment from this for sure.  Do I believe I'm as good as I can get?  Not really.  I believe I'm about as good as I can get with the level of commitment I have to improving.

From your score ( I know it is very subjective) it looks like you play different parts of the game, GV fighters buffs altho the buffs and GV look more like bringin troops in, but it also looks like your not showing any real improvement  in any of the areas of the game. That's why I'm asking. Are you happy with what your getting out of the game?

I buff and GV very rarely, like you say, mostly the occasional resupply of a base or upping of a goon.  I certainly have no skill or finesse in those areas, just not my cup of tea.  Pretty much any buffing that shows up in my score as damage is preparation for FSO (another part of the game I love, in limited quantities).

My score pretty much reflects the fact that while I normally try to fly smart, I also have the tendency to be a bit overly aggressive and get into situations where I die.  In the Main, I look for different kinds of fights depending on my mood.  Sometimes if the enemy bar dar is not that huge, I'll go into the fight lower to work on my defense, if it's a full bardar I'll go in high and try to start from the top and work my way down.  A large percentage of my deaths are because I started with the high guy and let him drag me down where more planes can reach me and bad things happened.  Another main cause of death for me is trying to drag for a squaddie and misjudging my ability to dodge versus the enemy's ability to shoot. <g>

As a duelist, I am probably somewhere in the lower middle of the pack in the Main arena.  Again, if I don't do something often I rust up badly in a short period of time.  Because I fly mostly in the main, my 1v1 skills are pretty subpar.  Among guys that sign up for dueling ladders and soforth, I'd probably rate bottom 10-20% or so.  Again, I haven't put in the work, as while I do enjoy a good 1v1, I like flying crowd vs crowd more.

Do you look to get to be a better fight jock? Do you look to get better at dive bombing? Do you look to get better at tanks? It looks to me, and has been mentioned by many that a lot of the players that run in the horde do so because they want the protection that their lack of skill can not provide. I think running in a horde may also lead to players NOT learning to get better. Why would they have to, they have 30-40 of their closest friends to cover their back. Wiley, do you feel that running in a horde is slowing your learning in the game, or does it not even enter your mind because your happy play as you are?

It hasn't really struck me to focus on improving heavily.  I'm always trying to get better, but I don't review the videos to see where I messed up, or scientifically analyze my tactics every time I fly.  I just try to have some fun and fly smart, in that order.  When the mood strikes me, I look a little harder at what I'm doing to try to improve, but generally speaking I'm just out looking for the type of fight I described above.  The last couple months I've been divebombing a bit more, I've got a decent amount of finesse with rockets, bombing, it depends on the day.


I'm not trying to pick on you, but you do seem to fit the demographic that we are talking about here. I'd just like to here your point of view, like I said at the beginning, why run in a horde?

I wouldn't say I precisely fit that demographic.  I also wouldn't say I'm 'in favor of hordes' except from the context of I like multi-on-multi engagements.  I dislike being part of a horde with no significant opposition.  When I fly, I typically look for the largest red bardar I can find and head for it at alt.  Somewhat often there's a green horde headed that way and yes, I'm part of that horde until I rtb and look for a better fight.  A couple of my squaddies like to stick with Rooks for whatever reason, so some nights I wind up not being able to find a decent fight when Bish/Knight numbers are low.  I just live with that and try to look for the smaller fights when it's like that.  Sometimes the only fight you can find without switching countries is a horde.

This is another thing, what changed and why don't we have squads like this any more? There are hundreds of squads in this game. Many are of a good size and could work a battle, or defend against one. Why don't you see more squad rivalries like we use to have? What changed? Personally I think the players looking for the quickest and easiest solution to grab land and AVOID combat. As the game has progressed along those lines the new players see "that's how it's done" and they continue with it.

I think the issue has many, many causes that boil down into relatively few simple behaviors.

(to be continued)
Wiley.
If you think you are having a 1v1 in the Main Arena, your SA has failed you.

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Offline grizz441

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Re: Why the Hordes?
« Reply #161 on: January 04, 2011, 01:05:57 PM »
Wiley, can we get you a coyote avatar please?

Offline Wiley

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Re: Why the Hordes?
« Reply #162 on: January 04, 2011, 01:52:30 PM »
Grizz- Never noticed I could upload to here, and have been too lazy to create a photobucket, there you go.

Fugitive-

What I tend to see happen with a typical horde, from whichever side it comes from, is a bunch of people in the same area head in a direction.  Sometimes it's because someone said 'Hey, let's take that base.' sometimes it's just because the group happened to up there looking for a fight.  They head toward the enemy base, or the enemy bardar if it exists.  If there are enemy, the two fronts collide, and one side comes out on top.  Those who enjoy fighting that just died on both sides reup, those who don't, go elsewhere looking for a fight.  People are probably watching the bardar fairly close after they die to see if they're reupping into a meat grinder.  Again, those who like to fight against long odds reup if they're shorthanded, those who don't go elsewhere.

The horde that's winning (let's call them country A) eventually presses over the other side's (country B) airbase, someone whacks the dar, and the vulching commences.  If there are enough people who are so inclined, a counter-horde from country B sometimes up from a nearby base and grabs to come in high to deal with the vulchers.  As the vulchers run out of ammo/fuel/get killed, country B usually winds up having the bigger numbers over the field at that moment.  Depending on the commitment level of country A, the fight sometimes fizzles, sometimes gets really interesting as people reup and head back.  There are also those who up from the capped field because that's where they find their fun.  Multi-on-multi engagements, fun, kills, and excitement.  Sometimes Country B presses back over Country A's airfield.

What a lot of people fail to realize, I think, is depending on where you come into the above story you can have a profoundly different view of what's happening there.  This is why I think a lot of people feel that both of the other countries are full of skillless hordelings.

If you come in early and are in country B, 'Country A has upped a horde!  The bastards!'  If you're in country A and notice the fight after country A has had a lot of attrition and country B has started pressing back, you might see the bardar and go, 'Country B has upped a horde!  The bastards!'  If you come in at the right time and see two full bardars in between the two airbases, I myself am thinking, 'Great!  A decent fight!'

Now, as to why people horde, I think a lot of the root cause has to do with chesspiece loyalty.  I think the majority sticks with their chesspiece.  Some think switching is 'cheating' because you have knowledge of what was going on in your country when you left.  Some think the other countries are just plain morally inferior to their chesspiece for reasons I can't begin to understand.  Either way, if you're sticking with one chesspiece, sometimes you're going to be outnumbering the other sides, and the only fight you can find will probably result in your side outnumbering the enemy.  This contributes to hordes.

Another factor is, committing too much to defense with no offense or ineffective offense means you are slowly going to lose ground.  Often, I notice the Rooks tend to approach the war with the 'Ever diminishing circle of base defense' tactic, which never works.  How often do you see two countries attacking each others' undefended bases?  At that point, it becomes a matter of which side is more efficient at capturing bases.

You very often see people grumbling about how the other side took 3 bases in the time it took us to take 1.  If your offense is faster than the other side's, you gain ground using these tactics.  Splitting your people into offense and defense slows down your forward progression, even though it also means you're losing ground slightly slower to the enemy, most people don't see this, IMO.

Another factor is, in an online game you can't really rely on people you don't know ingame to be inclined to help, or have the skills to help efficiently.  Some don't understand how to work with you to let you help them, like when you go to clear a guy who's being mobbed and he turns into you so to get at the threats on his six, you'd have to dump your E and put yourself in danger where if he turned at 90 degrees to you you can come in, clip the guy behind him, and reset to do it again if anybody sticks around.  Basically, you can't trust anyone's capabilities unless you know them.  With the amount of people in game, it's just plain easier to stick with overwhelming force than to try to keep straight who on your side you can rely on.

The worst scenario is when your side is being pressed on one side by one country and your side is pressing the other country on the other side, which is pressing the first country.  If your idea of fun is base defense with a chance of winning, no matter which side you're on, all you see is an insurmountable horde rolling your bases.  Again, perception when you look at the map.

A lot of the old guard guys who've been playing since Air Warrior have a different mindset from the average person who plays these days.  It used to be people with an interest in aviation played flight sims.  The games came to be because people liked flight, not because the consumers were gamers.  The gameplay was the most compelling thing for them, they'd fly in a scoreless arena with 2 bases, just to have fun shooting other people down, being shot down, and working on their ACM.  If I hadn't been a poor student back in the day of hourly rate flight on early AW and WB, I'd probably be one of them.

Nowadays, it's far more common for people to find flight sims because they like games moreso than they have a deep interest in WWII history and ACM.  For better or worse, that's the majority tendency, I think.  And neither side is going to change the other's way of enjoying the game.

Simply put, the more recent people are mostly more goal oriented when it comes to a game.  Their thinking is mostly something along the lines of, 'Ok, what's the objective?   Win the war.  Ok, how do we win the war?  Taking bases.  Ok, what is the easiest way to take bases?  Crushingly superior numbers.  Right, let's go.'

Same thing if they're into fighter v fighter.  'What's the objective?  Kill enemy planes.  Right then. 4x20mm, put pipper on target. pull trigger.'

The other thing about the newer people, I think most of them don't particularly care if they die, as long as the objective they've set for themselves is being accomplished, hence the HOing, and bomb and bailing.  That is the logical extension of the 'it's just a game' mentality.

Myself, I'm somewhat in the middle, been playing flight sims since JET.exe on an 8088 computer, up through Red Baron 3D among others, but I also have played a lot of other video games.  I have what some on here would call a passing interest in flight and history, but a bit moreso than the hardcore gamer mentality types.

And just to be clear, when I'm talking about 'newer players' I'm talking in the last 5 years or so, it's probably crept in.  I had noticed a shift in the other game before I came here, and knew and talked with quite a few of the older guys who were still around.

Holy wall of text, Batman...  Sorry folks.

Wiley.
If you think you are having a 1v1 in the Main Arena, your SA has failed you.

JG11

Offline lulu

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Re: Why the Hordes?
« Reply #163 on: January 04, 2011, 02:21:07 PM »
The answer is simple for me.

Because we don't have targets really important for few players.

In previous version, as i said, I flew vs v-field and factories, because there was a lunny little
possibility to take v-base and eny depended on factories too, and during those sorties i can
duel with few players that defended those bases.

Now every target on the grounds needs a lot of player and the air becomes quickly fully of planes - that is not
a bad thing nevertheless it is not balanced too much. Somebody can think that it depends on number of player into the arenas but this is not correct. It is so because the variety of ground small target is a bit poor.

I come back in AH because they 'fixed' the 'diabolic' town capture procedure - as i have predicted ...

I will enjoy if on the ground we could have small targets to take with the aid of few pilots,
linked for example with the eny system points - or something like that, for example less fuel for the enemy.


 :salute

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Offline Wildcat1

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Re: Why the Hordes?
« Reply #164 on: January 04, 2011, 02:29:28 PM »
Money talks.

B.S. walks.

Hope you got comfortable boots.






This right here is the problem.

For all the blow and bluster from this kid, he still won't go to the DA and beat up on a noob like me.

Poor BAR, destined to a life of hiding in the horde. Never to break free and fly like the eagle that he really is.

you must be that one guy in the bar who takes every argument thrown at him and settles it with his fists. either that or an eleven year-old kid.

this isn't about who is the "man" here, it is about the one who takes things in a mature manner, and you are seriously portraying yourself as either a little kid, or a seriously disgruntled person. You seriously need to take a step back and read what it is you are writing
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