Author Topic: To Appomattox  (Read 2348 times)

Offline Muzzy

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1404
Re: To Appomattox
« Reply #45 on: January 19, 2011, 09:18:05 AM »
My wife and I visit Gettysburg every two years... We spend our days wandering the battlefield and the evenings walking the town and having a quiet dinners. Back in 1996, I wrote my Thesis on the Gettysburg campaign. I avoided the "what-ifs" and concentrated on Lee's predicament... He could stay in Pennsylvania only as long as he could avoid having to concentrate his army. Once concentrated, he had no more than 5 days of 3/4 rations and fodder. After that, he would be forced to start for home. Living off the land, without any supply line is precarious at best. This, as much as any reason, was why Lee prosecuted the fight so hard. Time was not on his side.

Just out of curiosity, why then was Sherman's March so successful?  I suspect it's because he never really stopped for a big battle, or he pillaged more, or something? 


CO 111 Sqdn Black Arrows

Wng Cdr, No. 2 Tactical Bomber Group, RAF, "Today's Target" Scenario. "You maydie, but you will not be bored!"

Offline Golfer

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6314
Re: To Appomattox
« Reply #46 on: January 19, 2011, 06:05:30 PM »
The Confederates didn't have an equal force to commit against Sherman in an outright fight.  Joe Johnston was bumping into Sherman here and there through spring and into summer 1864.  He was replaced by John Bell Hood who being the aggressive type took Sherman on in several engagements successfully getting his bellybutton kicked in the process.  Hood's tactics were essentially the equivalent of telling someone you're going to walk up to them and punch them in the face and then trying to do so.  It doesn't and it didn't work and it killed a lot of southern boys in several disastrous battles highlighted with numerous frontal assaults and many tens of thousands of casualties.  He ended up holing up and being beseiged in Atlanta before getting out in the autumn of 1864.

So yeah, Sherman stopped a few times along the way to fight.  There were quite a number of factors at play and the best Lee, Johnston, Hood and Davis could have ever hoped to do was prolong the fight as the raw numbers Grant and the Federal Army had to throw against the Confederates were incredible.

The good news is they spared Savannah.  I love that town.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2011, 06:07:19 PM by Golfer »

Offline Tyrannis

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3931
Re: To Appomattox
« Reply #47 on: January 19, 2011, 06:08:54 PM »
Just out of curiosity, why then was Sherman's March so successful?  I suspect it's because he never really stopped for a big battle, or he pillaged more, or something? 
fear. fear spreads faster than any army can march.

Offline RichardDarkwood

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1925
Re: To Appomattox
« Reply #48 on: January 19, 2011, 06:19:08 PM »
Just out of curiosity, why then was Sherman's March so successful?  I suspect it's because he never really stopped for a big battle, or he pillaged more, or something? 

Gen. Lee was a southern gentleman and did not believe in living off the country side as Gen. Sherman did. If you ever have the chance to read about the foraging done by Gen. Sherman's army it will disgust you at the way they treated citizen's.

Although Gen. Jubal Early told the town of Chambersburg,Pa. that if he did not recieve one million dollars he would burn down the city, he ended up taking what he could carry off after getting a small amount of cash from several locals, the he burnt the buisness district to the ground.


The end result is that Gettysburg was no more than an excursion for shoes that turned sour. Had Gen. Jackson not been gunned down by a member of the 18th N.C. a month earlier, hH would have taken the hill that Gen. Ewell failed to take and took the high ground.
A yappy back seater like Jester wasn’t popular or fun to fly with, more of an unnecessary distraction than anything else---Puma44

https://www.twitch.tv/hounds_darkwood
CO--The Bad Guys

Offline Widewing

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8800
Re: To Appomattox
« Reply #49 on: January 21, 2011, 10:07:52 PM »
Gen. Lee was a southern gentleman and did not believe in living off the country side as Gen. Sherman did. If you ever have the chance to read about the foraging done by Gen. Sherman's army it will disgust you at the way they treated citizen's.

Although Gen. Jubal Early told the town of Chambersburg,Pa. that if he did not recieve one million dollars he would burn down the city, he ended up taking what he could carry off after getting a small amount of cash from several locals, the he burnt the buisness district to the ground.


The end result is that Gettysburg was no more than an excursion for shoes that turned sour. Had Gen. Jackson not been gunned down by a member of the 18th N.C. a month earlier, hH would have taken the hill that Gen. Ewell failed to take and took the high ground.

It's very doubtful that Jackson would have been able to take either Culp's Hill or Cemetery Hill. Jackson would have faced the same issues. Much of the 2nd Corps was completely disorganized and scattered within the town, or trying to reform north of the town. Johnson's Division, the only major unit under Ewell that had not yet been engaged, stretched back for three miles. It would take several hours to get up, form up and attack up Culp's Hill. In the meanwhile, there was a Union Brigade already on the Hill, digging in and building breastworks.

As to attacking Cemetery Hill, Buford's Brigade (having suffered only 127 casualties fighting much of the day) had been shifted to the north base of the hill and drove off two Confederate Regiments of Smith's Brigade that had formed up south of the town. Buford advanced his troopers, whose breach loader carbines put down a Division sized volume of fire, causing the Confederates to break and race back into the town.

By the time that the 2nd Corps was reasonably reorganized, there were in excess of 13,000 Federal Troops on the two hills, with the Slocum's Corps coming onto the scene. Not to mention the three dozen guns of Union artillery already in place. I'm convinced that any piecemeal attack on either hill would have repulsed with severe loss. Besides, Hancock was in command, and he was hoping the Confederates would do exactly that. Lee lacked good intel on not only Union strength on the hills, but on the organization of Ewell's beat-up Corps. Rhodes's Division was shot to pieces. Early's division was scattered and beat up. Billy Smith withdrew his largely unbloodied Brigade from pursuing the retreating remnants of the 11th Corps after Buford chased his soldiers back into the town.

I have no confidence that Jackson would have had any success in place of Ewell....
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline Widewing

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8800
Re: To Appomattox
« Reply #50 on: January 21, 2011, 10:23:54 PM »
The Confederates didn't have an equal force to commit against Sherman in an outright fight.  Joe Johnston was bumping into Sherman here and there through spring and into summer 1864.  He was replaced by John Bell Hood who being the aggressive type took Sherman on in several engagements successfully getting his bellybutton kicked in the process.  Hood's tactics were essentially the equivalent of telling someone you're going to walk up to them and punch them in the face and then trying to do so.  It doesn't and it didn't work and it killed a lot of southern boys in several disastrous battles highlighted with numerous frontal assaults and many tens of thousands of casualties.  He ended up holing up and being beseiged in Atlanta before getting out in the autumn of 1864.

So yeah, Sherman stopped a few times along the way to fight.  There were quite a number of factors at play and the best Lee, Johnston, Hood and Davis could have ever hoped to do was prolong the fight as the raw numbers Grant and the Federal Army had to throw against the Confederates were incredible.

The good news is they spared Savannah.  I love that town.

Sherman had to deal with Hood before he captured Atlanta. Indeed, Hood was responsible for most of the damage to the city when he ordered that everything useful to the Yankees that could not be carried off by the Confederates, be blown up or burned. Hood elected to move into Tennessee, in the hope that Sherman would follow. He didn't need to follow, and was quite glad to see Hood go. As we know, Hood destroyed his army with suicidal attacks at Franklin and Nashville. Both Schofield and Thomas kicked Hood's butt big time.

Johnston had few troops to impede Sherman, and Sherman was able to avoid having to concentrate his army, which allowed them to live off the land. In Pennsylvania, Lee had no choice but to concentrate (Lee's army pilfered the Pennsylvania countryside, taking whatever they wanted, offering worthless promissory notes and script in exchange) as he was correctly concerned that Meade could isolate the three widely scattered Corps and defeat them in detail. Lee had no choice but to forage as he had no supply line whatsoever. That was in his plan from conception.
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline Saxman

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9155
Re: To Appomattox
« Reply #51 on: January 22, 2011, 01:15:11 AM »
It's very doubtful that Jackson would have been able to take either Culp's Hill or Cemetery Hill. Jackson would have faced the same issues. Much of the 2nd Corps was completely disorganized and scattered within the town, or trying to reform north of the town. Johnson's Division, the only major unit under Ewell that had not yet been engaged, stretched back for three miles. It would take several hours to get up, form up and attack up Culp's Hill. In the meanwhile, there was a Union Brigade already on the Hill, digging in and building breastworks.

As to attacking Cemetery Hill, Buford's Brigade (having suffered only 127 casualties fighting much of the day) had been shifted to the north base of the hill and drove off two Confederate Regiments of Smith's Brigade that had formed up south of the town. Buford advanced his troopers, whose breach loader carbines put down a Division sized volume of fire, causing the Confederates to break and race back into the town.

By the time that the 2nd Corps was reasonably reorganized, there were in excess of 13,000 Federal Troops on the two hills, with the Slocum's Corps coming onto the scene. Not to mention the three dozen guns of Union artillery already in place. I'm convinced that any piecemeal attack on either hill would have repulsed with severe loss. Besides, Hancock was in command, and he was hoping the Confederates would do exactly that. Lee lacked good intel on not only Union strength on the hills, but on the organization of Ewell's beat-up Corps. Rhodes's Division was shot to pieces. Early's division was scattered and beat up. Billy Smith withdrew his largely unbloodied Brigade from pursuing the retreating remnants of the 11th Corps after Buford chased his soldiers back into the town.

I have no confidence that Jackson would have had any success in place of Ewell....

Truth be told, I think there's a lot more glorifying of Jackson than what he FULLY deserved. There's long-standing controversy that the name "Stonewall" came not from a determined stand at Bull Run, but because he sat on his rear end while Bee and Bartow were getting shot to pieces and was late in relieving them. The flanking action at Chancellorsville was as much a product of Lee's tactical ability and Hooker's failures as it was any brilliance on the part Jackson.
Ron White says you can't fix stupid. I beg to differ. Stupid will usually sort itself out, it's just a matter of making sure you're not close enough to become collateral damage.

Offline RichardDarkwood

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1925
Re: To Appomattox
« Reply #52 on: January 22, 2011, 01:46:33 AM »
I have no confidence that Jackson would have had any success in place of Ewell....

Then you need to go back further and read more. Gen.Jackson would have taken that hill, especially since it was unoccupied. Gen.Jackson was a genius at tactics and didn't take no for an answer.

Example: Battle of Harpers Ferry,Va.
He occupied the Maryland hieghts come hell or high water.

Example: Battle of South Mountain
Gen.Jackson again tells his troops to occupy a difficult position which wins the day.

A yappy back seater like Jester wasn’t popular or fun to fly with, more of an unnecessary distraction than anything else---Puma44

https://www.twitch.tv/hounds_darkwood
CO--The Bad Guys

Offline zack1234

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 13213
Re: To Appomattox
« Reply #53 on: January 22, 2011, 04:32:17 AM »
HBO  :salute

There are no pies stored in this plane overnight

                          
The GFC
Pipz lived in the Wilderness near Ontario

Offline Saxman

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9155
Re: To Appomattox
« Reply #54 on: January 22, 2011, 08:41:20 AM »
Then you need to go back further and read more. Gen.Jackson would have taken that hill, especially since it was unoccupied. Gen.Jackson was a genius at tactics and didn't take no for an answer.

Example: Battle of Harpers Ferry,Va.
He occupied the Maryland hieghts come hell or high water.

Example: Battle of South Mountain
Gen.Jackson again tells his troops to occupy a difficult position which wins the day.



Maybe you should actually read what Widewing has to say instead of repeating pop-culture myth by rote.
Ron White says you can't fix stupid. I beg to differ. Stupid will usually sort itself out, it's just a matter of making sure you're not close enough to become collateral damage.

Offline CptTrips

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8269
Re: To Appomattox
« Reply #55 on: January 22, 2011, 09:48:47 AM »
Then you need to go back further and read more. Gen.Jackson would have taken that hill, especially since it was unoccupied. Gen.Jackson was a genius at tactics and didn't take no for an answer.

Example: Battle of Harpers Ferry,Va.
He occupied the Maryland hieghts come hell or high water.

Example: Battle of South Mountain
Gen.Jackson again tells his troops to occupy a difficult position which wins the day.





OK.  Question:  Gen. Jackson vs. Chuck Norris?

Hmmmmm?


:noid,
Wab

Toxic, psychotic, self-aggrandizing drama queens simply aren't worth me spending my time on.

Offline RichardDarkwood

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1925
Re: To Appomattox
« Reply #56 on: January 22, 2011, 11:27:35 AM »
Sorry it was early when i posted my last post. I did not mean Battle of South Mountain, i meant the 1862 valley campaign.
A yappy back seater like Jester wasn’t popular or fun to fly with, more of an unnecessary distraction than anything else---Puma44

https://www.twitch.tv/hounds_darkwood
CO--The Bad Guys

Offline Widewing

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8800
Re: To Appomattox
« Reply #57 on: January 22, 2011, 12:42:39 PM »
Then you need to go back further and read more. Gen.Jackson would have taken that hill, especially since it was unoccupied. Gen.Jackson was a genius at tactics and didn't take no for an answer.

Example: Battle of Harpers Ferry,Va.
He occupied the Maryland hieghts come hell or high water.

Example: Battle of South Mountain
Gen.Jackson again tells his troops to occupy a difficult position which wins the day.



Well, I guess that I'm as well read on Jackson as anyone.... You gloss over Jackson's failures, such as his inability to accomplish anything during the Seven Days battles. His inability to get along with other senior officers, even to the point of trying to courts-marshal A.P. Hill for an imagined infraction. Jackson was a borderline lunatic. Yes, he had a talent for tactics and was extremely aggressive on occasion. That would not be enough to capture a well defended, heavily wooded hill with a battered and scattered Corps that had marched for 12 hours and fought a hard fight. Oh, and Culps Hill was not unoccupied, which is another myth. The 11th Corps began falling back through Gettysburg around 4 PM. By then, Wadsworth's Division was scaling Culps Hill, with one Brigade already in place. By 5 PM, the entire Division was on the hill, building breastworks. At 5:30 PM, Hancock sent a message to Meade stating that he had 20,000 men in position to defend both hills and pronounced his position one that "cannot be well taken". Within a half hour, a quarter of Slocum's Corps was on the field, with a total of 27,000 troops at his disposal to fend off any Confederate attack having arrived by sundown. Every study I have seen has stated categorically that Ewell could not possibly have organized an attack with more than 7,000 troops prior to 6 PM. Ewell was cautious, but not at fault for not assaulting either of the hills immediately.

My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline Tango

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1421
      • http://www.simpilots.org/
Re: To Appomattox
« Reply #58 on: January 22, 2011, 03:55:00 PM »
I think when Lee said "he had lost his right arm", when Jackson died, says alot more than what you have.

Just remember there were some on Ike's staff that didn't think Patton could get to Bastogne in time.
Tango78
78th Razorbacks
Historical Air Combat Group

Offline Saxman

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9155
Re: To Appomattox
« Reply #59 on: January 22, 2011, 04:14:43 PM »

Just remember there were some on Ike's staff that didn't think Patton could get to Bastogne in time.

And Lee also thought 15,000 men could take Cemetery Ridge in a frontal assault.
Ron White says you can't fix stupid. I beg to differ. Stupid will usually sort itself out, it's just a matter of making sure you're not close enough to become collateral damage.