US and Soviet Union in World War II (was: From Appomatox

[Babalonian]

Ah, Stalin, I'm pretty sure he's been given way more than his due already.

Dig deeper into the facts and beyond the propaganda.  You make it seem like 14% of the Red Air Force's aircraft is a trivial and insignifigant number, similarly to the Red Air Force's emphasis and mentality through most of that time period on pilot training and survivability beyond one sortie.  And the Siege of Leningrad, puh-lease, history has yet to give us better evidence and proof of what will happen in a modern battlefield when two idiots in command colide.  Had either side been taking orders and been under the command of a dictator with anything but an egotisistical military strategy and agenda for Leningrad then they would of conducted that seige a lot better, in a lot less time, and with a lot less loss of life.  Even the name of the battle itself has always erked and troubled me, it's considered a siege yet in my mind a siege is a strategical and planned operation involving esentialy to out-smart and out-wait your fortified and isolated opponent, rather than physicaly wrestle and force them into submition by brute force.

[1pLUs44]

When they run out of bullets before you can run out of guys, you can win any war.

[Penguin]

Ah, Stalin, I'm pretty sure he's been given way more than his due already.

Dig deeper into the facts and beyond the propaganda.  You make it seem like 14% of the Red Air Force's aircraft is a trivial and insignifigant number, similarly to the Red Air Force's emphasis and mentality through most of that time period on pilot training and survivability beyond one sortie.  And the Siege of Leningrad, puh-lease, history has yet to give us better evidence and proof of what will happen in a modern battlefield when two idiots in command colide.  Had either side been taking orders and been under the command of a dictator with anything but an egotisistical military strategy and agenda for Leningrad then they would of conducted that seige a lot better, in a lot less time, and with a lot less loss of life.  Even the name of the battle itself has always erked and troubled me, it's considered a siege yet in my mind a siege is a strategical and planned operation involving esentialy to out-smart and out-wait your fortified and isolated opponent, rather than physicaly wrestle and force them into submition by brute force.

Not exactly, the big issue in Russia was that Hitler had foolishly decided not to equip his forces with winter gear in a propaganda move.  This gave General Winter an advantage too great to overcome, and Russia pounded down on it every chance they could.

Also, consider where the Russians had been before the war- a poor, backwards, largely illiterate country based on farming.  Considering what they got to work with, they did a pretty darn good job. 

Analogy: Imagine trying to fend off a pack of rabid Rottweilers (Germans), then try doing that after getting hit by a car (Revolution).

-Penguin

[Tyrannis]

Not exactly, the big issue in Russia was that Hitler had foolishly decided not to equip his forces with winter gear in a propaganda move.  This gave General Winter an advantage too great to overcome, and Russia pounded down on it every chance they could.

Also, consider where the Russians had been before the war- a poor, backwards, largely illiterate country based on farming.  Considering what they got to work with, they did a pretty darn good job. 

Analogy: Imagine trying to fend off a pack of rabid Rottweilers (Germans), then try doing that after getting hit by a car (Revolution).

-Penguin

not the similie. it would be imagine everyone on a train trying to defend a pack of rottweilers after a trainwreck. russia outnumbered germany immensly.

[Penguin]

True, but Germany had better equipment, and it had its Industrial Revolution, while Russia had not.

-Penguin

[Tyrannis]

True, but Germany had better equipment, and it had its Industrial Revolution, while Russia had not.

-Penguin

true, but russia was also being supplyed by one of the biggest industrial giants in the world (america).

germany had an advantage yes, but not one big enough to hold out against the russian horde.

dont mistake me for a russian lover tho, i think russias attack policy for world war two was plain stupity. just my opinion.

[Penguin]

Yes, but do you hear about Russia using Shermans and P-40's?  No, you hear about the T-Series and LA-7's.  Russia still had a lot on its plate after lend lease- although that still gave it a fighting chance.

-Penguin

[Babalonian]

Not exactly, the big issue in Russia was that Hitler had foolishly decided not to equip his forces with winter gear in a propaganda move.  This gave General Winter an advantage too great to overcome, and Russia pounded down on it every chance they could.

Also, consider where the Russians had been before the war- a poor, backwards, largely illiterate country based on farming.  Considering what they got to work with, they did a pretty darn good job. 

Analogy: Imagine trying to fend off a pack of rabid Rottweilers (Germans), then try doing that after getting hit by a car (Revolution).

-Penguin

We can play the what-if game until we're all blue in the face.  True, the fierce winter they had played a major role, but specificaly with Leningrad, Hitler wanted it taken at all costs and Stalin wanted it held at all costs.  If stalin had pulled back and out of it, he may of been able to of formed a defence that would of stopped the German advance before it reached artillery range and the footsteps of Moscow, and also perhaps a more potent counter-offencive afterwards.  Had Hitler of put the resources he spent on capturing the city into surrounding it and isolating it (starve it into submission), he could of entrapped a devastating amount of manpower and material the soviets couldn't spare at the time and probabley of made it to Moscow in time to surround and start isolating it before the onset of that winter.

[Tyrannis]

Yes, but do you hear about Russia using Shermans and P-40's?  No, you hear about the T-Series and LA-7's.  Russia still had a lot on its plate after lend lease- although that still gave it a fighting chance.

-Penguin

the t-34 was actually designed by an american. i believe the story goes the u.s turned his idea down but the russians took it up.

[Reaper90]

the t-34 was actually designed by an american. i believe the story goes the u.s turned his idea down but the russians took it up.

Just the design for the suspension and wheel system, not the whole tank.

[KgB]

Starting a new thread to continue this discussion.

Here's the statistics regarding the U.S. vs Soviet Union efforts in World War II.

Casualties

Soviet Union: Anywhere from 8 to 10 million deaths.

I call B.S. on that one.
10 million solders only, add another 20 million civilians.  You guys can respect Nazi solders all you want, i would execute every single one of them.

[Babalonian]

Now that really personaly ticks me off, someone looking for praise or honor for one of those evils over the other.  If you're looking for more respect or honor here in this thread for the Red Army than for Nazi Germany - find none will you from my Polish blood.  Take a guess what off-the-handle forum-guidline-violating responce I have in mind for your question that would also cast the Red Army in no better a light?  Shal we take a stroll down that memory lane and look at how awesome the Red Army's humanitarian contributions have been to the world before, during and after its pact with the evil Nazi Germany?

They were both armies of normal everyday men, from normal families and fighting for what they were all told was their country and home, being led and ordered around by two of the most evil and vile characters of history.

[Penguin]

Now that really personaly ticks me off, someone looking for praise or honor for one of those evils over the other.  If you're looking for more respect or honor here in this thread for the Red Army than for Nazi Germany - find none will you from my Polish blood.  Take a guess what off-the-handle forum-guidline-violating responce I have in mind for your question that would also cast the Red Army in no better a light?  Shal we take a stroll down that memory lane and look at how awesome the Red Army's humanitarian contributions have been to the world before, during and after its pact with the evil Nazi Germany?

They were both armies of normal everyday men, from normal families and fighting for what they were all told was their country and home, being led and ordered around by two of the most evil and vile characters of history.

My mom is Polish, I know all about what happened to Poland, and it wasn't pretty.  Half my family grew up under communism, and hate all that it stands for.  Communism looks good on paper, but never works out- thus, I favor capitalism.  I'm not here to glorify either system, but to get an answer to a hypothesis of mine; who did the most to bring down Hitler?  US, UK, or USSR?  It seems to me that since the Russians fought longest, thus wearing down the Germans to such an extent that the allies could knock it down with considerably less effort.

Learn to separate ideological disscussions from military ones.  I agree with your second point, however; soldiers on both sides were misled and betrayed.  They came home to a broken country, and were frequently left starving in the streets.   

Yet, I ask again- who did the most to bring down Germany in WWII?

• US
• UK
• USSR

I'll guess the USSR.

-Penguin

[Tyrannis]

My mom is Polish, I know all about what happened to Poland, and it wasn't pretty.  Half my family grew up under communism, and hate all that it stands for.  Communism looks good on paper, but never works out- thus, I favor capitalism.  I'm not here to glorify either system, but to get an answer to a hypothesis of mine; who did the most to bring down Hitler?  US, UK, or USSR?  It seems to me that since the Russians fought longest, thus wearing down the Germans to such an extent that the allies could knock it down with considerably less effort.

Learn to separate ideological disscussions from military ones.  I agree with your second point, however; soldiers on both sides were misled and betrayed.  They came home to a broken country, and were frequently left starving in the streets.   

Yet, I ask again- who did the most to bring down Germany in WWII?

• US
• UK
• USSR

I'll guess the USSR.

-Penguin

like ive said, the U.S and britain were bombing germany and losing lives over germany way before russia even came close to its borders.

if it wasent for the U.S/british bombing raids destroying germany's industry, the german forces on the eastern front would of been better supplyed,better equiped and would of been able to stem the tide of russian dogs.

[Motherland]

destroying

Decentralizing would be a much better word for it... Allied bombing campaigns didn't really have a significant effect on German production capacity until late '44... in fact, it continued to expand until then.