Torque or Power ?

[Reaper90]

This is all rather silly, though, when you think about it.... if I was in the market to spend $120K on a ZR1 or a Viper ACR, I'd have one of these built instead, with a breathed-on LS7, SMOKE the ZR1 and the ACR on the strip and the track, and have about $20K left over........

[CAP1]

LOL those were the figures for the viper srt-10, not the acr. :s

and yes its my opinion, opinion backed up by the fact that ive driven both cars.

again, the vette is a much better car bang-for-the-buck wise than the viper.

 everyone's gonna have their opinions, but facts are facts.........vette is totally built and designed by chevy. not so with the viper. the vette does everything the viper does, plus more.

 i've never driven either, but i have enough friends with each to get good info from. of course my friends 1200hpsrt10 viper will hammer anything on the street.....but then it's not stock. nor is his 96 viper. or his 68 goat.


 and so you don't think i;m playing favorites......i turn wrenches for a living. i work on pretty much anything that rolls through my doors.
 i own a 9 second 68 camaro, and used to own a 12 second street mustang(which averaged 24 mpg, and could easily cruise at higher speeds than the speedo displayed.
 i currently drive a dodge dakota sport with a 318.

[Big Rat]

Thanks Reaper90,

445 rwhp, is not to shabby, especially since you haven't mentioned any headwork.  That's fairly close to where mine was sitting before the Maggie. Even at my power levels I'm still a small fish if I get very far from my area (I'm a big Fish in Moro IL. ).  Quite a few 700+RWHP C5's and C6's if I get around West or South St. Louis.  Where you from Reaper?

Since I work on cars for a living I normally hate engineers, but the guys who developed the LS-1 and all the LS engines that followed, I'd love to shake their hands and say thanks .  You made one of the strongest easiest to work on engine platforms ever known.  You understood that overhead cams wasn't the only answer to performance and decided to stay with something light, small, and relatively simple.  

 
BigRat    

[Reaper90]

Thanks Reaper90,

445 rwhp, is not to shabby, especially since you haven't mentioned any headwork.  

The heads are Patriot Stage II 243 heads, CNC'd.

If I can recall it all correctly, the car has:

Stock LS1 bottom end
Patriot Stage II 243 heads
LS6 intake manifold
custom ground cam
hand ported throttle body
Ford Motorpsort injectors (I can't remember what size, something like 50#)
VaraRam cold-air intake
LG Motorsports long tubes, cat delete and X-pipe
Z06 titanium mufflers
custom tune on chassis dyno by a real wizard, the secret to making it all work

That's fairly close to where mine was sitting before the Maggie.

I'd love to do the maggie, that'll be the next big mod, but I'm sure the cam I have is way too aggressive for a blower. Have to make a change there. Then that'll require a high-rise MCM hood to clear the blower... then I'll need the L5 motorsports rear fender flares to cover the 345-wide ZR1 wheels and tires.....


It'll never end.....   

Where you from Reaper?

The Redneck Riviera, Myrtle Beach, SC! Actually I'm about 15 miles inland in a pretty rural area between two smaller towns, outside of this small community you might as well say Myrtle Beach.

Since I work on cars for a living I normally hate engineers, but the guys who developed the LS-1 and all the LS engines that followed, I'd love to shake their hands and say thanks .  You made one of the strongest easiest to work on engine platforms ever known.  You understood that overhead cams wasn't the only answer to performance and decided to stay with something light, small, and relatively simple.  

Ain't that the truth! I have a lot of friends with "other" types of sports cars, and having raced Acuras and Hondas I've been around it a lot, the mindset that DOHC engines are just the greatest and pushrod engines are somehow inferior just makes me  . I don't give a rat's butt how much hp you make per liter of displacement....I'll take a 6 liter pushrod engine over a 3.5 liter DOHC engine that weighs more and takes up more space under the hood any day.

[Skulls22]

both

[Big Rat]

Reaper,

Well with the headwork that number makes a bit more sence.  You can still run a fairly aggressive cam with a positive displacement supercharger, just has to be aggressive in the right spots.  This sounds like some odd cam numbers I'm going to throw at you, but they make sense when you think of it in terms of what's going to be your weak spot with a blower.  228/242 .613 .613.  My guess is your probably running something in the 230ish/230ish range with about a .600? am I close?  With a blower you don't need a whole lot of intake duration, after all it's being forced in there, the trouble is getting it all out   Depending on your wanted power level under 600rwhp stick with the positives, over 600rwhp you almost have to go centri.  The other advantage of the centris is you can keep a stock hood, the disadvantage is they tend to have to spin up a bit before full boost while a positive is almost instantly there.  Then there becomes the bottom end question, I think the most commonly agreed on safe range for a stock LS1 bottom end is around 550 rwhp, that's where I'm planning on stopping, since it still has the stock bottom end.  the Meth injection should get me there easily, since there was a lot more timing we wanted and couldn't get with the high Intake air temps.

 
BigRat

[Reaper90]

My guess is your probably running something in the 230ish/230ish range with about a .600? am I close? 

Sounds about right, IIRC somewhere around 232/232 and .600, been a couple of years ago I'd have to dig out the spec sheet on the cam.

The guy who runs the shop where the work was done has another customer with one of the newer LS1 powered GTOs... runs a ProCharger with methanol injection.... I don't know what else was done heads and cam wise, but I saw them do the dyno pulls and tune it... ended up with a hair over 700 rwhp. I was insane, especially since he ran the stock wheels and tires (255's I think). He said it would break traction and smoke the tires at just about any speed or gear, and he was afraid to give it full thottle just about ever, figuring if the tires didn't give it would destroy the clutch in a heartbeat.

 

[Strip]

Whats the point of build a killer engine and then being afraid to break parts if you put the hammer down?

Strip

[Reaper90]

Whats the point of build a killer engine and then being afraid to break parts if you put the hammer down?

Strip

Beats me... I think the clutch and everything behind that were next on the list.....

[Big Rat]

Reaper that cam would probably be ok, centerline would have an influence on it as well (I'm 115, normally aspirated normally runs tighter) obviously a blower cam like I have would be better.  Fortunately cam changes in LS engines aren't that bad (especially with a two piece cover ).

As far as building an engine greater then the drivetrain can handle.  Well it's kinda one of those things where if you know what power level you want it really won't matter till your all done where you start.  Obviously if you build your drivetrain first, you can beat on it without worry till your power level gets to it's limits.  The other way around works too, except you have to be nice to it until you build the drivetrain to handle it.  Either way you end up at the same point with the same amount of cash, as long as you had a plan. 

Going back to the GTO's, you know I didn't really care for them when they first came out.  But the mechanic side of me had them grow on me.  They do have the easiest engine compartment to work in out of all the LS1 cars.  I have a friend with one of the later ones with an LS2, he's like 470rwhp NA, running E85. I actually have a lot of friends with GTO's now, seems my tuner has a like for them.  He's got one right around 1200rwhp now, quite the monster, and still a streetable car.  He complaigns that my FRC sounds better though .  I actually think the rear tires are only 245's or something like that, so the guy with 700rwhp, will have the tires as a fusible link for the drivetrain (unless he puts slicks on it).

 
BigRat

[ink]

well im a bit late....hehe....but the greatest car EVER  made is a 71 ragtop Hemi cuda bar none.......I have broke so many chevy's they are crap,350 giant paper weights. I took a 73 Dodge Challenger with a 72, 340, 289 in the rear,I beat that car for over 6 years, across country 3 times, with never any major breaks, broke a torsion bar once, it had a minor cam but thats all, it was an absolute beast, I drove about 1600 miles in about 17 hrs derry NH to Daren Georgia,at which point the rear tread came off at 125mph,when I say I beat that car its an understatement,I went from Casa Grand AZ to Tuscon AZ a normal 60min drive in 19 min..this thing was unbreakable,an I cant even begine to express how bad bellybutton that car was,yup there were faster, in the 6 1/2 years I owned it I lost 3 street races,but nothing had as much muscle and beauty as that car,except that 71cuda,nothing like an old MOPAR,"Move Over Pentastar Approaching Rapidly"the chevelle that tried to race me in Texas lol that one was clasic.topped it at 150

[Reaper90]

well im a bit late....hehe....but the greatest car EVER  made is a 71 ragtop Hemi cuda bar none.......I have broke so many chevy's they are crap,350 giant paper weights. I took a 73 Dodge Challenger with a 72, 340, 289 in the rear,I beat that car for over 6 years, across country 3 times, with never any major breaks, broke a torsion bar once, it had a minor cam but thats all, it was an absolute beast, I drove about 1600 miles in about 17 hrs derry NH to Daren Georgia,at which point the rear tread came off at 125mph,when I say I beat that car its an understatement,I went from Casa Grand AZ to Tuscon AZ a normal 60min drive in 19 min..this thing was unbreakable,an I cant even begine to express how bad bellybutton that car was,yup there were faster, in the 6 1/2 years I owned it I lost 3 street races,but nothing had as much muscle and beauty as that car,except that 71cuda,nothing like an old MOPAR,"Move Over Pentastar Approaching Rapidly"the chevelle that tried to race me in Texas lol that one was clasic.topped it at 150

How's this? You find the biggest baddest 'cuda Challenger you can, any year, and come to Roebling Road Raceway in Pooler. GA, outside Savannah. It's a 2.1 mile 9-turn road course, but plenty fast and no "tight" corners - heck the front straight is over 3/4 mile long, so it ought to be a muscle car's dream, right?

I'll bring my 350 chevy crap paper weight, and we'll do 25 laps each at the same time. If I don't lap you twice I'll buy you a year's supply of whatever you like to drink. If I don't lap you once you'll never have to buy a bottle again as long as you live.

How's that, Hemi man?   

<---- lapped a n00b driver in a Viper once at Roebling, in my CRX race car, during a track day. Made the pass on the outside of turn 9, too. 

[CAP1]

How's this? You find the biggest baddest 'cuda Challenger you can, any year, and come to Roebling Road Raceway in Pooler. GA, outside Savannah. It's a 2.1 mile 9-turn road course, but plenty fast and no "tight" corners - heck the front straight is over 3/4 mile long, so it ought to be a muscle car's dream, right?

I'll bring my 350 chevy crap paper weight, and we'll do 25 laps each at the same time. If I don't lap you twice I'll buy you a year's supply of whatever you like to drink. If I don't lap you once you'll never have to buy a bottle again as long as you live.

How's that, Hemi man?   

<---- lapped a n00b driver in a Viper once at Roebling, in my CRX race car, during a track day. Made the pass on the outside of turn 9, too. 

that course could be fun in my fairmont. 

[Big Rat]

Ink,

How many years ago are we talking here.  When I was still streetracing a 12 second car was to be feared in the early 90's.  Now if it doesn't run 10's, don't even bother.  Different ballgame now as far as power levels, hemi cuda's, L88 vettes, Shelby GT500KR, LS6 chevelles, aren't feared anymore, but they are worth tons of money . A 350 of the 60's or early 70's even the LT-1's, aren't comparable to a modern LS-1 (actually 346) or any LSX engine currently.

 
BigRat     

[Strip]

The LSX platform is going to change the face of performance engines....

Strip