ar234 question

[lyric1]

These are the Watson Wizard Ar 234s

202 - Ar234B-2 - 140148 or 140343 - n/a - Jane I - 11 - 121445
303 - Ar234B-2 - 140148 or 140343 - n/a - Snafu I - 13 - 121446
404 - Ar234B-2 - 140311 - USA 40 - n/a - 28 - FE-1011
505 - Ar234B-2 - 140312 - USA 50 - n/a - 27 - FE-1010

505 is the restored Blitz and it has no guns.

202 and 303 went to the US Navy at Pax River

Photographs of the a/c shown no external gun packs either.

Correct but they did have the data from the RAF & it's AR-234's or from captured German documents.

[lyric1]

Close up picture of the periscope.



A page of the operators manual & how to shallow dive bomb highlighted.

[lyric1]

Correct but they did have the data from the RAF & it's AR-234's or from captured German documents.

This is what the British found.

[lyric1]

Now that one of the books arrived today I have a few pictures to share. I don't have conclusive proof as to what way the guns pointed yet for combat aircraft.

How ever I think these pictures are very interesting.

These three are shots of the rear guns on a service platform of some type?






Take particular notice of this last one as it is the most clear. Notice any thing strange about what way the guns are pointing?



Rather strange don't you think that they would have a jig made so that the guns are pointing down?


Now here is a picture looking in the gun bay of a AR-234 with the access hatch removed & the guns are not mounted.



Notice the same mounting bracket that the guns are clamped in on the first three photos?

Now look at the mounting holes that the each gun slides in to. Notice what way they are pointing?

Clearly they are pointing down also.

As I said not proof positive as these pictures are from a prototype,however I am leaning heavily towards the guns in AHII on our AR-234 may be pointed the wrong way. Flame on.








 

[MiloMorai]

If you look at a side view drawing you will notice the underside of the fuselage sloops upward. The guns are horizontal when fitted in the a/c.

The last photo is of the V21 (as noted in the bottom right corner), a prototype for the Ar 234 C. The same photo is in the Smith/Creek Ar 234 book. They also state that this was only fitted in the V21.

[lyric1]

If you look at a side view drawing you will notice the underside of the fuselage sloops upward. The guns are horizontal when fitted in the a/c.

The last photo is of the V21 (as noted in the bottom right corner), a prototype for the Ar 234 C. The same photo is in the Smith/Creek Ar 234 book. They also state that this was only fitted in the V21.

Yes as I said a prototype. The rear of the plane may swoop upwards & backwards how ever even using your logic that it shoots straight backwards it still is not correct in game the rounds shoot upwards. Also in regards to the V21 aircraft it was a C3 model the only one fitted with guns in the C classification it mentions nothing about it being in the B model. So what was in the B model? We know it had rear facing guns right? The rear of all the built AR-234's look to be about the same so would they make a radical change from the B model to the C in regards to the rear facing guns? I am not so sure about that.

The drawing of the rear guns off the C3 model I will concede they do look straight.



The more detailed drawing that is drawn by Arado at an angle has more detail & because of that angle it is hard to determine exactly where they are pointed? However they still look to be pointing down to me at least on the C & D model. Unless we can find a drawing with actual dimensions on it & showing what angle they mounted them. I have yet to see anything that for a fact says it pointed up or back.




We do have some info from people who had flown & tested & researched the AR-234B & since these guys were flight engineers & aviation experts of the day could they be so far off with regards to what direction the guns are facing? The photos as I said are not proof positive but they all seem to show a gun mounting system with a downward trajectory. Guess I will dig around some more.

EDIT: After looking at the first three pictures of the guns removed they are not mounted on a fixture but just sitting on a simple stool.

The first picture shows the guns sitting up one way & the last two the guns have been flipped over 180 degrees. So angle theory can't be based off of those first three pictures. The flange mounting in aircraft though I still think is downwards.


EDIT: This drawing may help it has a center line on it. Take a straight edge & see if the guns match it. They don't slightly downward.

[MiloMorai]

Yes as I said a prototype. The rear of the plane may swoop upwards & backwards how ever even using your logic that it shoots straight backwards it still is not correct in game the rounds shoot upwards. Also in regards to the V21 aircraft it was a C3 model the only one fitted with guns in the C classification it mentions nothing about it being in the B model. So what was in the B model? We know it had rear facing guns right? The rear of all the built AR-234's look to be about the same so would they make a radical change from the B model to the C in regards to the rear facing guns? I am not so sure about that.

What does the text say in the 2cd image?

What was in the B model?
A per the Pilot's Note, Operation of Equipment, Section 4, Armament and Armour, A. No guns or gun mountings are fitted to this aircraft

As for the angle of the guns, you are not taking into account the flight attitude of the a/c.

[Chalenge]

Yes he is and the point he is making is that the guns are aimed upward in AH (probably to make up for ballistic drop) which could very well be incorrect. He has done his homework on this one. Well done lyric.

[lyric1]

What does the text say in the 2cd image?

What was in the B model?
A per the Pilot's Note, Operation of Equipment, Section 4, Armament and Armour, A. No guns or gun mountings are fitted to this aircraft

As for the angle of the guns, you are not taking into account the flight attitude of the a/c.

Sorry for the long delay on answering you. I was waiting for a second book to confirm what I have read in the first book.

Forget gun angles & what way they were mounted. Per two  new books that I have they both say the B model series production units did not have any guns mounted at all none.

If correct a lot of AR-234 guys are about to be very unhappy with me.

[Babalonian]

Sorry for the long delay on answering you. I was waiting for a second book to confirm what I have read in the first book.

Forget gun angles & what way they were mounted. Per two  new books that I have they both say the B model series production units did not have any guns mounted at all none.

If correct a lot of AR-234 guys are about to be very unhappy with me.

Even as an after-production field mod/kit? 

 

If you're right, either a lot of 234 drivers are gonna be hunting your scalp, or possibley a nation of AH "luftvhiners" are about to embrace you as their post-production kit/field-mod god. ( )

[lyric1]

Even as an after-production field mod/kit?  

 

If you're right, either a lot of 234 drivers are gonna be hunting your scalp, or possibley a nation of AH "luftvhiners" are about to embrace you as their post-production kit/field-mod god. ( )

The b-1 & b-2 in some cases had the pieces in place to install the guns they just didn't on any of the B production series.(AT LEAST PER TWO NEW BOOKS I HAVE).






From the pilots hand book of an AR-234-B.



RAF had a captured plane fittings in place no guns though.

[Babalonian]

I only ask because you probabley already know it or have a positive (better than the intardnets) answer at hand: what was the serial/production number of the captured RAF 234 (I'm thinking it might of been a very early one (maybe even one of the first) because it had the mounts but no guns.  If it's a mid or late production run though... well, lets get to that bridge first.).

Edit:  Also, in your second quoted article in your most recent post, am I to understand the 234b could or commonly carried a single 1,000kg centerline bomb (or two 500kg) in addition to taking drop tanks under its engines?  If so, then our current 234 with drop tanks option sounds to be about 500kg shy of ordnance.

[lyric1]

I only ask because you probabley already know it or have a positive (better than the intardnets) answer at hand: what was the serial/production number of the captured RAF 234 (I'm thinking it might of been a very early one (maybe even one of the first) because it had the mounts but no guns.  If it's a mid or late production run though... well, lets get to that bridge first.).

Edit:  Also, in your second quoted article in your most recent post, am I to understand the 234b could or commonly carried a single 1,000kg centerline bomb (or two 500kg) in addition to taking drop tanks under its engines?  If so, then our current 234 with drop tanks option sounds to be about 500kg shy of ordnance.

   Here you go.

[MiloMorai]

The British captured 9 Ar 234s.

WNr 140113
WNr 140141
WNr 140173
WNr 140356
WNr 140466
WNr 140491
WNr 140493
WNr 140581
WNr 140596

The last Ar 234 delivered from Block WNr 140101 - 120 was on Sept 14 1944.
Block WNr 140141 - 180 began deliveries from early/mid Sept 1944.
Block WNr 140301 - 360 began deliveries from Nov 3 1944.
Block WNr 140451 - 500 began deliveries from Jan 3 1945.
Block WNr 140571 - 620 began deliveries from Jan 21 1945.

[Babalonian]

Looks like it's safe to say that the first 60 had at least the mounts ("provisions") installed then...

The British captured 9 Ar 234s.

WNr 140113
WNr 140141
WNr 140173
WNr 140356
WNr 140466
WNr 140491
WNr 140493
WNr 140581
WNr 140596

Is the information out there on which one of those that were captured had mounts or even the rear 20mms installed?