ar234 question

[lyric1]

Looks like it's safe to say that the first 60 had at least the mounts ("provisions") installed then...



Is the information out there on which one of those that were captured had mounts or even the rear 20mms installed?

Yes on the mounts. See previous posts. 

F1+MT / 140173. 

I can't even find anything yet at all in regards to a B model found with any guns mounted. Only the captured C3 model.

[lyric1]

Third book arrived today no mention of guns on B model however on the C model.





Looks like they abandoned putting guns on this model after the prototype.

[Krusty]

Well then they shouldn't be on the in-game model, either.

[lyric1]

Well then they shouldn't be on the in-game model, either.

Well not so fast. Books some times do get things wrong & maybe there is info that says otherwise. In light of the fact the C3 model a had new periscope system & they then dumped the rear guns on all C models to be built in my mind makes me think that the B didn't have them either.

I have been looking at photos of the b-1 & b-2 to see if I can find the tell tale mark of a possible rear gun mounted as in this photo of C3.



You can see the shell ejection slots as well as the gun opening. These are near impossible to find on any B model photos I have seen to date. Quality of the photos prevent seeing this or there simply not there.

Also it is possible but I think unlikely that the skin on some of these planes may have the holes but never fitted the actual guns?

I have a few more books on the way maybe they have more info.

I would like to buy this one http://www.amazon.com/Strahlflugzeug-Arado-Ar-234-Blitz/dp/3613022877/ref=sr_1_23?ie=UTF8&qid=1297301283&sr=8-23 I have his Luftwaffe Profile series #15 it makes no mention either way on guns on the b model. It is only a brief overview though. I would buy that book but I think it is only available in German. Not much point paying that much for something I can't read.

Any of our German speaking BBS guys have this one?

[Krusty]

Ejection chutes don't mean much. The main difference on the Me262-A2 was that 2x 30mm were removed to lighten the nose (because the bomb racks went there). Unless you can see the gun barrels themselves (they would stick out aft of the chutes, and you would see them) I'd say there's no real evidence they were used.

They didn't bother patching up the ports or anything. Doesn't mean the guns were present.
Let's look at the precedent of the 109F4 and the gondola capable wings... The few that were capable almost never carried them. Hence, no gondolas on the F4 (and IMO that's the way it ought to be)

Nice find!


EDIT: Note the guns were angled down. Those grooves angle up. They're just the fairing for gun barrels. If they were there you'd see them angled away just so slightly. To my untrained eye looks like that picture has no guns onboard.

[lyric1]

Ejection chutes don't mean much. The main difference on the Me262-A2 was that 2x 30mm were removed to lighten the nose (because the bomb racks went there). Unless you can see the gun barrels themselves (they would stick out aft of the chutes, and you would see them) I'd say there's no real evidence they were used.

They didn't bother patching up the ports or anything. Doesn't mean the guns were present.
Let's look at the precedent of the 109F4 and the gondola capable wings... The few that were capable almost never carried them. Hence, no gondolas on the F4 (and IMO that's the way it ought to be)

Nice find!


EDIT: Note the guns were angled down. Those grooves angle up. They're just the fairing for gun barrels. If they were there you'd see them angled away just so slightly. To my untrained eye looks like that picture has no guns onboard.

On this particular aircraft they did start with them in. If you go back in the thread the actual pictures I posted of the guns were from this very aircraft. The deleted comment would also prove your point as that was for this aircraft as well. The only C model that had them.

[Krusty]

Perhaps that's a photo without them. I'm thinking you'd see the barrels sticking out. Got any with the visible barrels for comparison?

[lyric1]

Perhaps that's a photo without them. I'm thinking you'd see the barrels sticking out. Got any with the visible barrels for comparison?

Not in the plane no. Pictures of the actual guns from this plane yes.

[Krusty]

Well... imo... it's telling that the photo of the actual plane used to test the guns doesn't even have 'em installed when the photo was taken.

I know, I know.. That's not concrete evidence given the dynamic nature of prototypes/testbeds, but still! It's IMO a sign!

[lyric1]

Well... imo... it's telling that the photo of the actual plane used to test the guns doesn't even have 'em installed when the photo was taken.

I know, I know.. That's not concrete evidence given the dynamic nature of prototypes/testbeds, but still! It's IMO a sign!

Here one more pic for you. I don't see any guns in the fairing?



Also have other C3 pictures & those planes have no rear gun portals at all.

The picture back in the thread showing the brackets mounted in an ar 234 with no guns are also from this same aircraft.

[Krusty]

I don't either.

As shown earlier in the thread:



and:



You can clearly see that WHEN the guns are installed they have visible barrles protruding from the "trough" or "channel" there, and angled down (separate from the channel's curve along the fuselage)

That alone shows that when the guns are present they are easy to spot. If you can't find any evidence they were present -- well from this entire thread I'm gathering they weren't used. It's perfectly logical and you've got a lot of evidence to support it.

[Babalonian]

I'm interested in trying to trace this now from a different direction.  Other than the one assembley in the photos that we know existed (and likely for the prototypes), are there any documents to verify the rear gun assemblies were ever produced or available on a scale viable for more than just the prototypes?

[lyric1]

Yes on the mounts. See previous posts. 

F1+MT / 140173. 

I can't even find anything yet at all in regards to a B model found with any guns mounted. Only the captured C3 model.

After looking around some more this is what I have come up with on the F1+MT/140173 the first captured AR234..




The question I ask is what were the provisions for the guns?

Are they the holes in the rear of the aircraft for the cannons & shell ejection system?

Like the C3 model shown here?



Based off these photos I would say no.











The British did detail drawings of a couple of aircraft one being the aircraft in question. Also based off the photo recon drawing clearly these aircraft could not fit in the rear any gun system. I could not fit this on my scanner so it is in two parts.





So what are the provisions for guns? Clearly nothing external as far as gun related portals at the rear of the plane. Maybe the periscope?

Or maybe the gun mounting fixture like in this photo as previously posted in this thread of the C3 model?



What ever was there was clearly internal & it did not seem to warrant any detail of it as they did not show it on the blue print.

[Krusty]

Meaning they have bolt points for the guns.

Only the recon versions would have giant cameras in the back like those drawings have. The regular models would have plenty of room there.


Also, here:



Look closely at the bottom one. I think it's a trick of the light fooling your eyes. I can make out what looks like the "grooves" just inside the shadow on the ventral tail, right where the gun barrels would stick out.

[lyric1]

Also, here:

(Image removed from quote.)

Look closely at the bottom one. I think it's a trick of the light fooling your eyes. I can make out what looks like the "grooves" just inside the shadow on the ventral tail, right where the gun barrels would stick out.

I got caught on this as well.
It is not a light issue but in fact an access panel removed that gives that appearance. You can see it better in these shots.