Vulch fests

[Krusty]

While fun is "the objective" (noun), it is by no means in any way "objective" (adj.).


P.S. Your comment "wastes time" makes no sense either. The entire game is a waste of time. Wasting time is fun in and of itself. I take great joy in 45-minute sorties where I engage and disengage half a dozen times but keep looking for the next contact. If I'm damaged I don't bail. I take my wounded ride all the way back to a field and try my darndest to land her. Guess what? If I can't land on the first pass, I don't just auger. I make another pass. Even if I have no kills. I don't just alt-F4 and log back in because it's faster. We don't have instant-spawn quake arenas. This game is NOT about fastest time-to-action. Otherwise we'd spawn directly behind the nearest enemy, bail out as soon as we got the kill, and respawn directly behind the next enemy.

Your ideas do not lend to good gameplay.

[Krusty]

I'd just like to echo PJ's comments. You're forcing your OWN ideas of what is a "good pilot" and insulting all others that don't fit your criteria. You're openly insulting them. You're slapping the majority of the community in the face. Especially with comments like "the ONLY reason you fly like that is because you only think of score" and so forth.

[PJ_Godzilla]

This seems true enough if I'm trying to come up with metric to determine the better pilot. But all we really want is to have metrics that reward people for fun play. I think fun is the objective.  

and to PJ_Godzilla's point.  

Come on, Hartmann? He only one life to give, and put it on the line everytime he went up. that's never sissy flying.

For some of us, playing as if this were real is half the appeal. that's why I fly FSO. Clearly, there is no real risk, but the key to enjoying theater is to willingly suspend disbelief. More on  this point - If it were just about dogfighting and not tactics and historical realities, I probably wouldn't bother with AH. A big part of the reason I do is for realism and immersion in a world I could never otherwise experience. That's a big part of what separates this from fantasy/arcade.

To your other point, certainly your metrics will encourage a type of flying - but why this one is any more valid still escapes me.

See my other post on interactivity also. I wanted to get your response to the multi/multi confounding issue such a system would face.

[Vinkman]

I'm glad you took that as it was intended.  On a more serious note, if the rationale for your idea requires you to insult other players because their game play choices don't match yours, then you probably don't have a good idea. It's more likely that you're just airing your prejudices. I used to have a narrower view of what was right and proper in a combat flight sim but I've come to appreciate the clash of competing agendas. I believe it keeps the game more interesting as the years go by.   

FLS,  

If you are refering to my use of the term "sissy flying" as an insult, then you are focused on the wrong thing. I'm not mad at people because they make it hard for me to kill them. I'm really OK with people fighting the way they want. I guess I'm asking you to ask yourself, whether they are fighting the way they want, or if what they want is a high score? If they want a high score, than changing the scoring system won't upset them, they will just figure out how to fly to get a high score in the new system. If they are flying to emulate the kill ratio of a Hartmann or to simulate the exploits of a different historical figure then, again, changing the score/rank system won't bother them either.

But it would take away the rant that folks who fly like that are "score potatos" since they wouldn't achieve top scores and rankings for flying that way.


I really think everybody wins.

[Vinkman]

I'd just like to echo PJ's comments. You're forcing your OWN ideas of what is a "good pilot" and insulting all others that don't fit your criteria. You're openly insulting them. You're slapping the majority of the community in the face. Especially with comments like "the ONLY reason you fly like that is because you only think of score" and so forth.

Come on Krusty, read the posts. I'm not saying that.

[Vinkman]

For some of us, playing as if this were real is half the appeal. that's why I fly FSO. Clearly, there is no real risk, but the key to enjoying theater is to willingly suspend disbelief. More on  this point - If it were just about dogfighting and not tactics and historical realities, I probably wouldn't bother with AH. A big part of the reason I do is for realism and immersion in a world I could never otherwise experience. That's a big part of what separates this from fantasy/arcade.

To your other point, certainly your metrics will encourage a type of flying - but why this one is any more valid still escapes me.

Now we're getting close. I don't think one is more valid, I think one creates more quality interaction between participants. Quality defines as "Both parties had a lot of fun"

See my other post on interactivity also. I wanted to get your response to the multi/multi confounding issue such a system would face.

Well, I have been formulating and haven't posted the whole formulae. But sometimes seeming complex things break down to very simple common denominators. Will it be perfect in its ability to rank challening from easy? Nope. Will it be better the current plane eny only system?  I think it will be a ton better.   

[FLS]

If you don't mean "sissy" as an insult why use it? You know it's pejorative. If everybody in the main arenas flew historically or "smart" it wouldn't result in no action. It would cause an evolution as people adapted to the different behavior. Just look at the scenarios. There is smart historical flying with a lot of action.

[PJ_Godzilla]

Well, I have been formulating and haven't posted the whole formulae. But sometimes seeming complex things break down to very simple common denominators. Will it be perfect in its ability to rank challening from easy? Nope. Will it be better the current plane eny only system?  I think it will be a ton better.   

Here I was referring to the issue of the 1v1 as compared to the furball. The historical state scoring looks very complicated to me once you get into a multi-interactive scenario. Consider the example where a fellow upper picks off the kill you e-bled to parity. Doe she get the same score you would've since his e-state and yours are historically virtually identical? What about a 10v10 furball where you're engaging multiple foes intermittently.? I see that as a major hurdle to any type of dynamic scoring system. 1 on 1, the tracking is easy. In the furball, you've got pickers dropping and uppers fighting up. Their historical states are probably less significant than their snapshot gunnery under such a scenario. Hell, I recall a furball where I cross-pinged an F6F pilot out of his seat with about 4 rounds of D-9 cowl gun. It was unbelievably lucky.

I guess I'd like to see such a system applied to perks more than rank. Why? Because perk scores are already weighted. The objective kill score and ratios, though, are something that will have to be retained regardless. Why? Because k/d is a gold standard people won't be abandoning soon. Any "other" metrics would still need to be "and" instead of "or".

[bustr]

If Hitech had never introduced a scoring system then this whizz fest would be about your loss of perk points.
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This same arugument comes around every year about the time a new crop of 18-36 month "serious players" decide the game wll be a better place for everyone because now they is experienced in the "Way of Aces High Mysteries" and is a proslitisin. One of you always has this last straw moment in the MA about those unanointed casual gamers who just don't get the true essence of Aces High.

ACK-ACK and Krusty have been telling them the same thing for about 10 years now. It's the MA. You don't like it go play in the DA with your six freinds. So,,, you PC minded real players can have the MA operating the way you think the universe in AH should run, you want HTC to kill its golden goose by coproliteing on the larger block of players who pay it's bills? And the same answers get thrown back by you guys: Well,,in that case this game has become a dog and I'll be dancing on HTC's grave. Just you wait and see......

So how are you going to convice Hitech the majority of his customers having fun is bad for business when he tallys his profit margin against that? You do realise this post pretty much is a veiled global insult, something like labeling them "ruinists" to the general active MA player base? This is the problem with being Politicaly Correct. First you have to convince the majority to beleive they are some how wrong or evil or something with an (ist) on the end of it to successfully control their conduct through shame.

So why not be up front with your label and convice 98% of us we can't have fun the way we see fit for our $14.95 within HTC's rules? 

[fullmetalbullet]

If Hitech had never introduced a scoring system then this whizz fest would be about your loss of perk points.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This same arugument comes around every year about the time a new crop of 18-36 month "serious players" decide the game wll be a better place for everyone because now they is experienced in the "Way of Aces High Mysteries" and is a proslitisin. One of you always has this last straw moment in the MA about those unanointed casual gamers who just don't get the true essence of Aces High.

ACK-ACK and Krusty have been telling them the same thing for about 10 years now. It's the MA. You don't like it go play in the DA with your six freinds. So,,, you PC minded real players can have the MA operating the way you think the universe in AH should run, you want HTC to kill its golden goose by coproliteing on the larger block of players who pay it's bills? And the same answers get thrown back by you guys: Well,,in that case this game has become a dog and I'll be dancing on HTC's grave. Just you wait and see......

So how are you going to convice Hitech the majority of his customers having fun is bad for business when he tallys his profit margin against that? You do realise this post pretty much is a veiled global insult, something like labeling them "ruinists" to the general active MA player base? This is the problem with being Politicaly Correct. First you have to convince the majority to beleive they are some how wrong or evil or something with an (ist) on the end of it to successfully control their conduct through shame.

So why not be up front with your label and convice 98% of us we can't have fun the way we see fit for our $14.95 within HTC's rules?  

good point, i dont pay good hard earned money just to play a dull boing game. people do need to stop whining about this though, its not really a big deal. i mean wow i shot your plane up before you took off whoopdeedoo. your just gonna take off again.

[Vinkman]

If Hitech had never introduced a scoring system then this whizz fest would be about your loss of perk points.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This same arugument comes around every year about the time a new crop of 18-36 month "serious players" decide the game wll be a better place for everyone because now they is experienced in the "Way of Aces High Mysteries" and is a proslitisin. One of you always has this last straw moment in the MA about those unanointed casual gamers who just don't get the true essence of Aces High.

ACK-ACK and Krusty have been telling them the same thing for about 10 years now. It's the MA. You don't like it go play in the DA with your six freinds. So,,, you PC minded real players can have the MA operating the way you think the universe in AH should run, you want HTC to kill its golden goose by coproliteing on the larger block of players who pay it's bills? And the same answers get thrown back by you guys: Well,,in that case this game has become a dog and I'll be dancing on HTC's grave. Just you wait and see......

So how are you going to convice Hitech the majority of his customers having fun is bad for business when he tallys his profit margin against that? You do realise this post pretty much is a veiled global insult, something like labeling them "ruinists" to the general active MA player base? This is the problem with being Politicaly Correct. First you have to convince the majority to beleive they are some how wrong or evil or something with an (ist) on the end of it to successfully control their conduct through shame.

So why not be up front with your label and convice 98% of us we can't have fun the way we see fit for our $14.95 within HTC's rules? 

Hmm.  I don't know where to start. So I'll just say that game has changed dramatically over ten years in an effort to tune it and make it better for all players. This would seem to render your whole premise that it was pefected years ago, and needs no tweaking,  as an argument against change,  not much of an argument at all. 

[Vinkman]

Here I was referring to the issue of the 1v1 as compared to the furball. The historical state scoring looks very complicated to me once you get into a multi-interactive scenario. Consider the example where a fellow upper picks off the kill you e-bled to parity. Doe she get the same score you would've since his e-state and yours are historically virtually identical? What about a 10v10 furball where you're engaging multiple foes intermittently.? I see that as a major hurdle to any type of dynamic scoring system. 1 on 1, the tracking is easy. In the furball, you've got pickers dropping and uppers fighting up. Their historical states are probably less significant than their snapshot gunnery under such a scenario. Hell, I recall a furball where I cross-pinged an F6F pilot out of his seat with about 4 rounds of D-9 cowl gun. It was unbelievably lucky.

I guess I'd like to see such a system applied to perks more than rank. Why? Because perk scores are already weighted. The objective kill score and ratios, though, are something that will have to be retained regardless. Why? Because k/d is a gold standard people won't be abandoning soon. Any "other" metrics would still need to be "and" instead of "or".

I think order can come from the kaos, but I'm an optimist. I agree with you that adding, rather replacing is the way to start. If it adds value it will gain in credibility. Whether it becomes a factor in Rank or Perks or both can be determined later. I will try to see what I can extract from a Film file in the way of data. I will use that as a basis for some formulations. It may end up being too hard to make sense of it, but where's the fun in NOT trying? 

[bustr]

I never infered it was perfected. Experience over time has shown HTC makes money from the largest number of players being happy. When they decide a change needs to happen it's dramtic and extream. Good or bad. But it's when they decide.

You gents are offering an arugument based solely on your small caudre is in some way elevated over the general ranks. Subsiquently you beleive as a consensus you collectivly have the ability to observe they are the rank and file ( something-ists) playing the game with a wrong headed approach impacting your self elevated sense of how the MA universe should function.

Last two times a single player convinced HTC to change the game one was Lusch's presentation of his long term collected data which helped HTC decide on the off hours arena. I suspect it worked for HTC's bottom line. The other was Baumer using Angular Mil math to present a need to standardise the FOV for all fighter gunsights. These things benifited everyone equaly. Not Lusch or Baumer indivigualy over the player base.

What you are doing is trying to convice HTC to modify the majority of MA players conduct so the game will be played in a manner more to your specific liking. Solely based on the concept that your small cuadre knows better than the majority rank and file how the MA game should be played. No data, no collected interviews with a broad cross section of the actual player base. Just your offended sense and feelings about Aces High game play. That's called PC hubris and only benifits yourself and handfull of like minded individuals.

Why don't you and your six freinds wait for HTC to release the new player based hosted arenas where you can be the Captain of your own mini AH reality

[Guppy35]

LOL speaking of a lot of high and mighty folks coming down on old Vinkman! 

It's your dime, but he's no more wrong in talking about how he feels about rewarding vulching then any number of the guys in this thread who have complained about this that and the other thing cause it doesn't fit their perception of the game.  Think flight models for one.  I won't name names, but you know who you are

And for you this is war guys.  Remember that ground kills were not counted in WW2 outside of the 8th AF who for a time counted them as equal kills because they needed an incentive to get their fighter pilots to go down and strafe as the Luftwaffe wasn't coming up to play.  Those guys didn't dream of setting up a vulch pattern over a deacked field.  They dreamed of dogfighting.  Considering the number of American aces who went down to ack strafing, you can understand why the brass looked for a way to reward the risk.

Since there is no risk in AH, unless your goal is to capture the field, the point in vulching is purely to get your name in lights.  Since outside of that one instance, no air forces in WW2 counted ground kills as air to air, then getting rid of credit for them isn't such a dumb argument.  If your goal is map conquest, who cares if you get your name in lights, you are doing it for teamwork and strategy.  The attaboys for taking your latest cartoon base ought to be reward enough right?


And yes to some of us it is a waste of time.  Not all of us have time to spend on long flights to a fight.  And no I don't want to hear go to the DA on this.  The folks I enjoy BS'ing with are in the MA.  Last night was a perfect example.  One dar bar on the entire map when I was able to log on.  This was at the center isle where naturally one side had taken all the bases but one where they had the vulch pattern on.  I saw a vet player land 9 kills twice, to attaboys.  He is a far better stick then that, but the goal seemed to be kills in the quickest and easiest fashion, which meant getting guys trying to up to the one fight there was.  I ended up calling it a night as there seemed little point in upping as there was no fight. 

[moot]

So why do you vulch at all?  If it's no big deal on the recieving end, what's the enjoyment on the shooting end? 

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