Colombian Air Force T-27 shoots down a GA aircraft carrying drugs

[ElectricOne]

Sorry Mach.. I saw a plane attempting to evade an intercept.  When I go down to treetop level and break left and right it means I'm trying to get away.  If the pilot was innocent of something why not just pop back up, fly straight and level, and follow the commands of the people who control the airspace I'm in?   Now I'm not a real pilot but if the people in control of the airspace I was in told me to take a heading and land at 'x' if I wasn't doing something wrong I'd head there.  Same as I do if I ever see red and blue lights in my rear view mirror.  I pull over and let them do their thing.  The alternative I brought on myself.  

There are many different reason why he did what he did. As odd as it sounds, he could have just gotten scared and started doing weird things. Perfectly normal people may start doing very weird things when they are scared. I don't agree that the fact that he is fleeing makes it justifiable to shoot him down. IMO, unless a suspect is an immediate threat, the suspect is nothing more than "a suspect." So shooting him down is kinda like killing him because you suspect that he may do harm in the future.  Good enough reason?

BTW, flying level at a safe altitude doesn't seem to be of much help: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHJOpHryjfE&feature=related

[Dichotomy]

Sorry guys I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this point.  Fair enough?

[FLS]

I'm not sure what you are drivinhg at there FLS, nor do I have any idea how what you wrote applies at all to the conversation.  I know very well what firing a weapon is like.  While I have never had the misfortune to be forced to fire at another human being, I have been trained to do it.  Ever scrap of training I have ever had has been to put hits directly into center mass.  While I agree that they don't call it "shooting to kill"  (likely for PC and lawyerly reasons), I find it astonishing that anyone would argue that shooting center mass is designed to do anything less then catastrophic lethal injury. 

I will agree that max heart rate and adrenaline play a huge part in real life situations, but that does not change the fact that the training is to shoot center mass.

Honestly, this is a rather silly argument anyway.

I was addressing your ludicrous suggestion, which followed your initial comment that LEOs shoot to kill, that they should shoot at someone's hand or to wound while they were being shot at or otherwise threatened with deadly force. I can't believe that anyone who has fired a handgun would suggest that.  If you understand about fine motor control issues under stress than you should know that trained people often miss the center of mass shot but you suggest an even harder target.

If you know a better way to consistently stop someone immediately other than shooting center of mass I'd like to hear it. Stopping isn't a euphemism for killing, it's the actual rational for deadly force. Obviously it's called deadly force because it may result in death but death is not the object. Accusing people who must use deadly force of trying to kill people is intellectually dishonest and insulting to all law enforcement.

If you were trained to shoot center of mass and then follow it up with one to the head after they're down and no threat then you'd have a point.

[CAP1]

There are many different reason why he did what he did. As odd as it sounds, he could have just gotten scared and started doing weird things. Perfectly normal people may start doing very weird things when they are scared. I don't agree that the fact that he is fleeing makes it justifiable to shoot him down. IMO, unless a suspect is an immediate threat, the suspect is nothing more than "a suspect." So shooting him down is kinda like killing him because you suspect that he may do harm in the future.  Good enough reason?

BTW, flying level at a safe altitude doesn't seem to be of much help: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHJOpHryjfE&feature=related

if the drugs he was transporting made it to your kids hands, and one of them died from them, would you feel differently?

 the con knew the risk he was taking. everything that happened to him happened because of his choice, and his choice only.

[CAP1]

Sorry guys I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this point.  Fair enough?

i think possibly he was fishing shirly....and he caught a lot of us.

[MachFly]

BTW, flying level at a safe altitude doesn't seem to be of much help: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHJOpHryjfE&feature=related

damn  

[ElectricOne]

Just found something interesting: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KdxgIxqhsgs (This is the same video posted in the first post. What's interesting is a commentary in the description of the video. I highly recommend anyone who has at least some interest in this topic read it. It's pretty long but well worth it. Just to clarify, I'm talking about the video description, not the comments of other people on youtube.)

A quote from that text: "report said that in most of the shootdowns, pilots fired on aircraft "without being properly identified, without being given the required warnings to land, and without being given time to respond to such warnings as were given to land."

Based on the video, I think I agree.

[MachFly]

Just found something interesting: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KdxgIxqhsgs (This is the same video posted in the first post. What's interesting is a commentary in the description of the video. I highly recommend anyone who has at least some interest in this topic read it. It's pretty long but well worth it. Just to clarify, I'm talking about the video description, not the comments of other people on youtube.)

A quote from that text: "report said that in most of the shootdowns, pilots fired on aircraft "without being properly identified, without being given the required warnings to land, and without being given time to respond to such warnings as were given to land."

Based on the video, I think I agree.

 
Not sure how to comment






In case if the article on youtube gets deleted I'd like to post a copy on here:

Is Congress Approving these kind of Covert Operations or is the CIA at their old Iran-Contra tricks? Unfriendly Fire. With the help of CIA spotters, the Peruvian air force shot down 15 small civilian aircraft suspected of carrying drugs, in many cases without warning and within two to three minutes of being sighted, a U.S. lawmaker said Thursday.

It was the first public disclosure of the number of planes shot down between 1995 and 2001 as part of the Airbridge Denial Program, a CIA counternarcotics effort that killed an innocent American missionary, Veronica Bowers, and her infant daughter in 2001. A State Department investigation at the time said that Peruvian fighter jets forced another 23 planes to land.

Michigan Rep. Pete Hoekstra, senior Republican on the Intelligence Committee of the House of Representatives, told The Associated Press most of the 15 planes shot down with the help of the CIA crashed in the jungle. The wreckage has not been or could not be examined to ascertain whether narcotics were aboard the aircraft.

"The Bowers could have gone in the same category if they had crashed in the jungle," Hoekstra said, speaking of the missionary family from Hoekstra's state, Michigan.

The Bowers' plane made an emergency river landing after it was hit.

Excerpts from a CIA inspector general's report released in November raised questions about whether the missionaries' plane was the only craft mistakenly suspected of drug smuggling. The CIA report said that in most of the shootdowns, pilots fired on aircraft "without being properly identified, without being given the required warnings to land, and without being given time to respond to such warnings as were given to land."

Fast Fact
The report said the CIA withheld the results of investigations that documented continuous and significant violations of aircraft interception procedures created to prevent the shoot-down of planes unconnected with the drug trade.
The IG report said the CIA withheld from the National Security Council, Justice Department and Congress the results of multiple investigations that documented continuous and significant violations of aircraft interception procedures created to prevent the shoot-down of planes unconnected with the drug trade. The classified report was completed in August and sent to Congress in October.

The CIA report directly contradicted the State Department's findings in 2001. The State Department at the time said the other planes were shot down only after "exhausting international procedures for interception."

CIA Director Michael Hayden is appointing a six-person board, including two current CIA officers, to determine whether disciplinary action is warranted, according to spokesman Mark Mansfield. CIA accountability boards can look at both current and former employees.

Hayden also has directed CIA's Center for the Study of Intelligence to identify lessons learned that remain relevant to CIA's current operations, as was recommended by the classified IG report.

[ElectricOne]

if the drugs he was transporting made it to your kids hands, and one of them died from them, would you feel differently?

 the con knew the risk he was taking. everything that happened to him happened because of his choice, and his choice only.

If the con was indeed the con...

Regarding your first comment: I would be blaming myself first before anyone else, for not teaching/rasing the kid properly. IMO it's your responsibility to not use drugs and to make sure your kids do not do that. Government/law enforcement should do their job, but it is primarily a personal responsibility, IMO.

[Vudak]

if the drugs he was transporting made it to your kids hands, and one of them died from them, would you feel differently?

 the con knew the risk he was taking. everything that happened to him happened because of his choice, and his choice only.

I lost my brother and several great friends to drugs, Cap.  Even had the misfortune of finding one and trying to revive him.  I lost all these people despite our government's best efforts to blockade drug suppliers and assist in ruining the lives of drug users (if you want to throw a dealer in jail, fine, but an addict faces such slim chances of recovery that should they prove to have the strength to get clean, they should be welcomed back into society with open arms and no felony convictions hanging over their heads).

I pray that someday people in power will have the fortitude to admit that our current tactics do not work, and drastically adjust course.  I submit that Portugal and the Netherlands are modern, western nations with proud histories and bright futures.  It would be wise for us to at least consider if something similar to what works for them might work for us.

[CAP1]

may i politley suggest you edit that before the skuzzster sees it?

[MachFly]

may i politley suggest you edit that before the skuzzster sees it?

Done

[Tupac]

BTW, flying level at a safe altitude doesn't seem to be of much help: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHJOpHryjfE&feature=related

Watching that made me sick, dumbarse trigger happy peruvians

They should execute those people who shot that plane down.

[CAP1]

I lost my brother and several great friends to drugs, Cap.  Even had the misfortune of finding one and trying to revive him.  I lost all these people despite our government's best efforts to blockade drug suppliers and assist in ruining the lives of drug users (if you want to throw a dealer in jail, fine, but an addict faces such slim chances of recovery that should they prove to have the strength to get clean, they should be welcomed back into society with open arms and no felony convictions hanging over their heads).

I pray that someday people in power will have the fortitude to admit that our current tactics do not work, and drastically adjust course.  I submit that Portugal and the Netherlands are modern, western nations with proud histories and bright futures.  It would be wise for us to at least consider if something similar to what works for them might work for us.

sorry man....really i am.

 perhaps i should not have gone there...and i apologize to electric one too.....

i lost 4 friends to drugs,.,,,,one of them was probably the best mechanic i knew.....he drowned when he od'd on heroine, and passed out...fell in the bath tub face first.......

 my only point was that things like that to me are pretty black and white. the aircraft in question was skimming treetops. when he realized there was another aircraft, he started jinking, all the while staying low. he did nothing to show that he intended to follow their orders, and continued to head for the border........so in my mind(as puny as it seems at times), he brought his own death on himself. he made that decision when he turned the starter over on the first engine.

and regarding your last statement.....i REALLY wish our so-called enforcement agencies would do what those guys did...

[CAP1]

If the con was indeed the con...

Regarding your first comment: I would be blaming myself first before anyone else, for not teaching/rasing the kid properly. IMO it's your responsibility to not use drugs and to make sure your kids do not do that. Government/law enforcement should do their job, but it is primarily a personal responsibility, IMO.

my apologies sir....i shouldn't have gone there......