April FSO: Ketsu Go

[Bino]

Well, fact is that in RL by 1945 most of the IJN and IJA planes were pretty much outclassed.  So, how do you create a game that illustrates that time without becoming a one-sided slaughter?  I look forward to seeing how our FSO designers have solved this, handicapped as they are by the somewhat limited AH plane set that exists today.

[ghostdancer]

Well Nef has implementing three things so far to try to balance out the design.

1) Forcing the B29s to hit multiple targets to make sure there is not one massive force of them (no pig piling)>

2) Enforcing an alt limit on the B29s (no 32K alt strikes from them).

3) Japanese forces will have the numerical advantage on the U.S.  Exact advantage TBD once all squads have indicated their preferences.

[oakranger]

Well, fact is that in RL by 1945 most of the IJN and IJA planes were pretty much outclassed.  So, how do you create a game that illustrates that time without becoming a one-sided slaughter?  I look forward to seeing how our FSO designers have solved this, handicapped as they are by the somewhat limited AH plane set that exists today.

Is FSO base on a historic aspect of the war? 

[kilo2]

Is FSO base on a historic aspect of the war? 

Yes but it also based on having fun. How much fun is it going to be to have everything out run you and you have your 1 pass on the 29s only to most likely have them fly on. Yeah the allies may have a blast in the turkey shoot but the axis will get the shaft.

[oakranger]

Yes but it also based on having fun. How much fun is it going to be to have everything out run you and you have your 1 pass on the 29s only to most likely have them fly on. Yeah the allies may have a blast in the turkey shoot but the axis will get the shaft.

No different then the Ju-88 out run the hurr and spit I in BoB or B-17s doing the same on the A6M2 in a early PTO event. 

[StokesAk]

If I may comment on this setup,

It may seem out balanced, but there was an FSO not to long ago which stacked up A6M2s vs P38s P47s and F4Us.

I thought it was going to be a turkey shoot too, but it ended up being an Axis victory.

There are a few late war monsters on the Allies side, but they do have some weak points that the Axis can play to their advantage.

IMHO the B29 should be put at a lower alt limit OR have formations disabled, a tight group of good pilots can destroy any incoming aircraft in that thing; it carried 20k in bombs, so having no formations shouldn't limit its destructive power.

Just a little side note, maybe some squads will take no formations, limiting the points the Axis can get from the B29 kills, and it is fun as hell, we do this regularly in FSO!

Whatever the outcome is, I'm sure the CMs can make this a balanced event, if it doesn't turn out so clean cut for the first Frame, I'm sure there will be changes.

[ghostdancer]

Nef stated there will be an alt cap for B29s of 22K. The attached graphic is taken from HTC site and shows the military and WEP speeds of the IJA & IJN planes versus the B29.

If HTC stats are correct then only the A6M5B would have a hard time at 22K alt keeping up with the B29. The Ki61 is faster at 22K but around 23K the two planes match speed roughly. So it could be a bit dicey for the Ki61 also. Ki84 and N1K2 should have no problem.

The issue really comes down to if the IJA/IJN forces are already at alt versus when they engage the B29s or not.

[Nefarious]

The issue really comes down to if the IJA/IJN forces are already at alt versus when they engage the B29s or not.

That should not be a problem as they should have plenty of time to climb.

Thanks for the Charts...

[StokesAk]

Seeing all the charts in front of me changed my outlook, thanks for posting ghostdancer. 

[Krusty]

Seeing all the charts in front of me changed my outlook, thanks for posting ghostdancer. 

At 22k the charts show about a 15mph top speed difference between B-29 and N1K2.

That's about the lead that hurr1s have over the Ju88s in BOB setups....

And we all know how those play out, right? Hurricanes cannot catch them. 15mph on paper doesn't mean much when a single 5-degree jink to avoid escorts puts you off target. You can never regain it.

The Ki-61 could not catch a formation of B-29s at 20K when I tested them with a few friends. He was chasing one formation hopelessly and I actually passed underneath him (lol) and overtook and flew away in another set.

That chart may be with 100% fuel in the B-29s. Flying at 100% fuel will make you slower. You need a higher AoA to maintain level flight, which increases drag (or whatever the science) and makes you slower. Lesser fuel loads mean you fly faster. Look at B-17s and B-24s in this game. Flying around 300mph TAS because they take lighter fuel loads.

Ki-84 will definitely have the speed advantage in this one, but only for 3 minutes at a time. It is also notorious for being disabled/destroyed easily (weak jaw) when attacking bombers. Taking it in against B-24s is a terrifying experience. Against B-29s even worse.

EDIT: Not intending to harp. I think folks are SERIOUSLY underestimating the B-29 here.

[Krusty]

Let me put it this way:



FW190A8 is better than the best of the IJA line, the Ki-84 at all higher alts.

It still has a VERY hard time chasing down B-24s. You might get one pass/merge/dive in but if you have to give a chase to formations for any reason (bad timing, escorts kept you off target, bombers turned away, whatever) you will almost be unable to catch B-24s.

Now add 60mph on top of that, double the effective return fire, and lower the best of the best's top speed. You get the B-29 vs Ki-84. Forget Ki-61s being used against these planes. One pass and they're done. If they get through that pass.

[Bino]

...
That chart may be with 100% fuel in the B-29s. Flying at 100% fuel will make you slower. You need a higher AoA to maintain level flight, which increases drag (or whatever the science) and makes you slower. Lesser fuel loads mean you fly faster. Look at B-17s and B-24s in this game. Flying around 300mph TAS because they take lighter fuel loads.
...

Interesting observation.

According to what I've read, and talking with a few folks who flew B-17s and B-24s in WWII, bombers always flew at maximum weight, trading off bombs vs. fuel depending on the distance to their target.  But always at maximum weight.  As the old saw goes, "nothing is more useless than the fuel you leave in the truck, or the runway that is behind you."  I have never - yet - heard of a RL instance where bombers were loaded with less fuel in order weigh less and fly faster.

[HighTone]

I like all of the PTO setups, but I must admit that the B-29's are going to be a bear to bring down with the current planes and gun packages that we have. But until HTC rounds out the Japanese stable, it is what it is.

It will still come down to the skill of the Axis pilots. The allies should come into this one with a swollen head(B-29, F4U, P-47N.....and the how could we possibly loose attitude) and it wouldn't surprise me if they take a few lumps

[ghostdancer]

Per the chart the N1K2 is closer to 20 mph faster at 22K not 15 mph.

Ki-84 military and WEP speed are the same at 22K so there is not a 3 minute window.

By the logic of less fuel means faster plane then by the time that all the IJN fighters vector in on the B29 they will also have less fuel, so by this logic they will also be faster since they won't be carrying 100% fuel at the time of the intercept.

[ghostdancer]

In regards to your B24 versus the Fw190A8, 190a8 has a serious speed advantage over the B24J at co-alt or high alt positions at basically all altitudes. As for fuel states, yes in the MA you won't have bombers with 100% fuel but you also won't have fighters at 100% fuel either.