P63

[bc21]

The Soviet Air Force was the largest P-63 operator with approx. 2500 aircraft.

 

[icepac]

We really need to go to Russia or get hold or a russian history expert via the internet. "Attack of the Airacorbas" which chronicles the P-39 use during WWII list active equipment rosters for units fighting the Germans in the Crimia, and lists P-63's in the those units. This reference is one that interests me the most. I will try to find it and post it again.

The freehost guys are largely russian and freehost has no P63 in game.....but they do have yak7b, yak3, pe2, pe8, yak1, and a few lagg variants culminating in the la7.

I'm pretty sure only the russians who flew them will be interested in discussing it's virtues while the rest will talk up the russian planes.

[AWwrgwy]

We really need to go to Russia or get hold or a russian history expert via the internet. "Attack of the Airacorbas" which chronicles the P-39 use during WWII list active equipment rosters for units fighting the Germans in the Crimia, and lists P-63's in the those units. This reference is one that interests me the most. I will try to find it and post it again.

I own that book and, as stated by the title, it is about the P-39 in Soviet service. It has a single reference to the P-63, which I have previously quoted and posted.


wrongway

[SpencAce]

we need the p-61 much more.  p-63 is just a better airocobra

[SpencAce]

we need the p-61 much more than the p-63.

[SpencAce]

+1 for the p-61

[Mystery]

Don't even try to hijack once a thread reaches page 5, won't work

re the P=61:

Pigslilspaz has posted wisely

[Vinkman]

I own that book and, as stated by the title, it is about the P-39 in Soviet service. It has a single reference to the P-63, which I have previously quoted and posted.


wrongway

Can you find that post? I lent my book to someone and they haven't returned it yet. I posted it here as well. I'll try to search it. I'm refering to the reference that shows P-63s in the Airacorba units. If I recall it was 17 Kingcobras in the squadron.

[Mystery]

There will be an answer to be found

Closer and closer all the time.

So far, with a combination of Google Translate and digging through bibliographies, I've found:

1) The Soviet 12 Air Army (along with the 9th and 10th) supported Operation August Storm.
2) One Fighter Division from the 12th Air Army (less one regiment) provided air support for the soviet 39th Army (Manchurian Invasion)
3) The 12th Air Army's Fighter Divisions were:
- 190th Fighter Division
- 245th Fighter Division
- 246th Fighter Division
4) Of these, the 190th and 245th were equipped with P-63A's in regimental strength

Conclusive? No; this is only a "they were there" item but there are a lot of other references I haven't even touched yet. More work to do. Sources include G. Mellinger "Soviet Air Forces 'Autumn Storm' Air Order of Battle", D. Glantz, "August Storm: the Soviet 1945 Strategic Offensive in Manchuria" and Pobedo Vnotchenko, "Victory in the Far East" - in russian, of course.

Additionally,
"Air cover and support for Shimushu (Kurile Island) landings were provided by the 128th Fighter Division, their 888 IAP had the P-63 Kingcobra..." - G. Garrido "Aerial Actions Over Kuriles (August 1945)
Interestingly enough, the Kurile islands were a major source for P-63s for modern restoration as the Soviets basically abandoned them there in the mid to late 1950's. Hmmm, wonder how they got there?

Further research includes (if I can find copies and translate):
1) Novikov, A. "Voenno'Vozdushnye sily v Man'chzhurskoi operatsii" (The air force in the Manchurian operation]. Voenno-istoricheskii zhurnal [Military history journal], August 1975:66-71.
2) Sykhomlin, I. "Osobennosti vzaimodeistviia 6-i gvardeiskoi tankovoi armii s aviatsiei v Man'chzhurskoi operatsii" [Characteristics of the cooperation of the 6th Guards Tank Army with aviation in the Manchurian operation]. Voenno-istoricheskii zhurnal [Military history journal], April 1972:85-91.

It's only a matter of time until somebody finds something conclusive. Of course, it would help if I could read russian.

[Mystery]

There was a bit of a debate over Japanese aerial strength and composition earlier in this thread.

Some research reveals that the Japanese were horribly outmatched in the brief Russo-Japanese war. The Russians put up somewhere between 3000-4500 combat aircraft for Operation August Storm: La-7's, Yak 9s, P-63 KING COBRAs   plus bombers, transports, and recon planes.

By contrast, the Japanese total aerial strength was about 1000, of which 40 were Ki-84's, 630 were trainers (Ki-79s, 55s and 86s) and the balance were bombers and recon planes with a sprinkling of about 140 2nd-line fighters (Ki-43s, 44s, 45s and 27s).

Much of the Japanese air power was destroyed on the ground.

Not too surprising there weren't many air-to-air kills in this campaign.

Source: J. Brennan, "Japanese Air Order of Battle and Operations Against 'August Storm' August 1945"

[AWwrgwy]

Can you find that post? I lent my book to someone and they haven't returned it yet. I posted it here as well. I'll try to search it. I'm refering to the reference that shows P-63s in the Airacorba units. If I recall it was 17 Kingcobras in the squadron.

From page 5 of this thread:

The only reference to the P-63 in the above book is pp 317-318 of the same chapter:


Quote
Regiments of the 9th Guards Fighter Division played an active role in the destruction of these encircled German forces from 26 April to 8 May. The division had 102 Airacobras on hand at the end of April, of which eighty-eight were serviceable and fourteen were unserviceable. Of the 103 assigned pilots, 91 were in units and considered combat-ready; 6 were deemed not combat-ready. A total of twenty-nine P-63 Kingcobra aircraft had arrived in the division during the month of April, received from the 6th Reserve Aviation Brigade. In addition, one P-39 had returned from a major repair shop. The 16th and 100th Guards Regiments were based at Neuhausen airfield and the 104th Guards Regiment at Yuterbog.

That's it in the entire book. Of course it is a book about the P-39, not the P-63.


wrongway

[Vinkman]

From page 5 of this thread:

That's it in the entire book. Of course it is a book about the P-39, not the P-63.


wrongway

Yes that's it. Very frustrating that they got the planes in April, and the attacks went on into May, but there is no mention if they planes were used. It could have taken some time to learn to use the P-63, and it's not clear if trained Pilots came with them, or if they were flown in by ferry pilots and parked. I think if were could find a Russian historian who could dig into the records of 9th guards action from April through May 1945, we may get an answer.

[Krusty]

I read a very interesting story from a Soviet pilot once. Taken from his diary and translated into English. It told the tale of his assigned unit and how they were formed to fly A-20s in 1943 or some-such. It took over 2 years before the unit became front-line operational. They just dumped the pilots and crew at a deserted location off of trucks in the middle of night in winter, leaving them to fend for themselves (paraphrasing from memory). They had major problems getting the place set up, ready, then getting the planes, then once the planes arrived they had major problems checking them, going over the manuals (and ditching most of them because they didn't speak English -- coming up with something in native Russian wasn't easy) and then even just the check-flights were glacially slow to happen.

It was an interesting history from the perspective of a pilot.

I don't think they would just have P-63s arrive then use them the next day. It was a new craft. It had to be checked out, tested (there's always a ground check and a service flight after receiving new craft), show the pilots the differences, teach the ground crew how to service and replenish it, allow pilots many flight hours of practice to learn stall behavior and spin and other problems, etc... Gunnery practice perhaps....

Just saying "There are P-63s on the roster" doesn't say what level of readiness those were in. They arrived in April, the attacks ended in May. We're talking a time when one sortie every 2 weeks wasn't unheard of. There was clearly (as mentioned below) minimal threat from the Japanese.

I think you need more proof than the listing on a roster.

[Vinkman]

I don't think they would just have P-63s arrive then use them the next day. It was a new craft. It had to be checked out, tested (there's always a ground check and a service flight after receiving new craft), show the pilots the differences, teach the ground crew how to service and replenish it, allow pilots many flight hours of practice to learn stall behavior and spin and other problems, etc... Gunnery practice perhaps....

I would agree, but since these planes were transfered from a different group, I wonder if the pilots trained to fly them were transfered with them? In that case they could have been used right away, but there is still proof that needs to be found that they ever saw action against Germany.  I think it is possible [if not probable] and we should continue to dig. 

[Krusty]

I think it's possible. I don't know how probable.

The problem is also the Stalinist propoganda had its fingers in every pie, even down to badgering pilots as soon as they stepped out of planes about how many enemies they killed, and pressing until they got a suitable answer. They spread whatever image they wanted, and they perpetuated this in their documents as well. Keeping the masses in ignorance is how they worked.

Which means sometimes you can't really trust their official documents. Probably most times. If you found a report of P-63s killing Germans, could you trust it? Or was this just disinformation to show they were using something? Chest thumping, self-inflating "look at us, we're using this awesome plane to kill our enemies"....

Or if you don't find any documents, did they simply want to HIDE the fact that it did? Because they had an agreement with the US to keep them in store for the japanese invasion. Not that they'd abide by this agreement, but they may have destroyed or altered all reports contrary to that public image....


You see what I mean? It's a treacherous issue. Because of that I don't think the truth will ever be known about some things the Soviets did in WW2.