Spit 8 vs Ki

[MachFly]

Wait, we're talking about planes, right?  Or pilots?  Smart pilots will beat dumb pilots every time without regard to the planes they're flying.  I argue that the pilots being equal, the Ki-84 matches up well against all Spits.  I didn't suggest that it was superior.

By your logic, the Zeke should be the greatest plane in the game since it outturns pretty much everything.  So what if the Spit I and V outturn the Ki?  The Ki possesses significantly better low speed vertical handling and flaps responsiveness than either of them.  I flew the godly and later the less-than-godly Spit V for years, and a Ki-84 matched up extremely well against it when flown to its strengths.  

Also by your logic, the Spit XIV should be outclassed by the Ki-84 since the Ki easily outturns it.  Yet you were arguing exactly the opposite of that earlier - that the Spit XIV dominates due to its speed advantage.  Either turning matters, or it doesn't matter.  How's that Spit XIV's slow speed vertical handling?  I recall it being rather tempermental when it got slow.

Right planes, forget what I said about the pilots. What kind of low speed were you talking about? ~100mph, 150mph, 250mph, ect...?

I'm not saying if the airplane turns better than it is superior, I'm saying that if the their best performance is at totally different speeds and they would play the dogfight with different maneuvers. You can't say that one is better than the other, it's like comparing the zero and 190D9.  

[Dead Man Flying]

Machly you might want to check your data. The Ki-84 has better low alt stats.

<waves to +dead>

Heya, FLS   How's life treating you these days?

[Dead Man Flying]

What kind of low speed were you talking about? ~100mph, 150mph, 250mph, ect...?

Definitely under 200.  Once you're under 150 and approaching 100, the flaps on the Ki, particularly in the vertical, give it a huge advantage.  Most of the really good Ki pilots I played against would try to get the fight slow, then they'd start working the fight vertically.  The staying fast part is easier said than done, because if you're converting alt to speed, you risk putting the Ki on a perch.  To avoid that, I'd usually give them my six, get them to commit to it, then dive for speed and work around them in the 300 to 350 range.  If you don't have enough air below you, or if you're on the deck, that strategy is a bust.

I'm not saying if the airplane turns better than it is superior, I'm saying that if the their best performance is at totally different speeds and they would play the dogfight with different maneuvers. You can't say that one is better than the other, it's like comparing the zero and 190D9.  

I think it's a stretch to compare the Ki-84 versus Spit XIV to the Zeke vs. 190D9.  I understand what you're trying to say, but you're overstating your case.  They're a lot closer in performance than they are apart.

[Dead Man Flying]

double post

[morfiend]

 I have to agree with Lev on this one,while on paper the spit has a slight"sustained" climb advantage,in practice the KI can keep it's nose up when the spit starts to flounder.This happens at or about the same speed that the Ki can deploy it's flaps and this allows the KI to turn either way,this is what gives it the upper hand on the spit.The spiteen likely has the toughest time dealing with this type of encounter as it falls off it's left wing far too easy when slow.



     



  PS: good to see you back Dead!

[MachFly]

Definitely under 200.  Once you're under 150 and approaching 100, the flaps on the Ki, particularly in the vertical, give it a huge advantage.  Most of the really good Ki pilots I played against would try to get the fight slow, then they'd start working the fight vertically.  The staying fast part is easier said than done, because if you're converting alt to speed, you risk putting the Ki on a perch.  To avoid that, I'd usually give them my six, get them to commit to it, then dive for speed and work around them in the 300 to 350 range.  If you don't have enough air below you, or if you're on the deck, that strategy is a bust.

Your right, if your under 150 Ki had an advantage in vertical maneuvering.

I think it's a stretch to compare the Ki-84 versus Spit XIV to the Zeke vs. 190D9.  I understand what you're trying to say, but you're overstating your case.  They're a lot closer in performance than they are apart.

Roger.

[MachFly]

Machly you might want to check your data. The Ki-84 has better low alt stats.

<waves to +dead>

Top speed is the only thing Ki-84 has better than Spitfire mk XVIII at low altitude.







My acceleration test from a few days ago:

The following test on acceleration was done at 65ft, from 150mph to 250mph with WEP and 50% fuel.
Ki-84: 21.2 Seconds
Spit8: 18.8 Seconds

[MachFly]

I have to agree with Lev on this one,while on paper the spit has a slight"sustained" climb advantage,in practice the KI can keep it's nose up when the spit starts to flounder.This happens at or about the same speed that the Ki can deploy it's flaps and this allows the KI to turn either way,this is what gives it the upper hand on the spit.

If the Spit8 just starts climbing than the Ki-84 will probably be able to pull it's nose up and shoot him (as you said), but the proper thing to do is accelerate a bit (as I pointed out in the previous post Spit8 accelerates faster) and then you start climbing. If done right the Spitfire will be in a perfect position to drop down on the Ki that is at low energy state (or leave the fight).

[Dead Man Flying]

If the Spit8 just starts climbing than the Ki-84 will probably be able to pull it's nose up and shoot him (as you said), but the proper thing to do is accelerate a bit (as I pointed out in the previous post Spit8 accelerates faster) and then you start climbing. If done right the Spitfire will be in a perfect position to drop down on the Ki that is at low energy state (or leave the fight).

Don't get too wrapped up in those charts - it's easy to look at minor differences and see them as gaping performance chasms.  In a dogfight situation, co-alt and co-E, a marginal difference in acceleration won't have a huge impact on the fight.  You've also left out some other important variables such as turn rate and some intangibles such as low speed handling and platform stability.  To put it simply, the Spit is pretty stable and controllable at medium and high speeds where planes like the Ki-84 and the 109s tend to stiffen up, and the Ki-84 is very stable and controllable at low speeds.  Good pilots in both planes will try to play to these strengths.

However, realize that a 1.5 second advantage in acceleration from 150 to 250 (which the Ki erases and surpasses once you go beyond 250) won't amount to any significant separation in an actual fight.  If you're having success building a perch against Ki pilots in the Spit VIII using such tactics, then the people you're playing against just aren't as good as you.  Don't blame the plane for that though.

[MachFly]

Don't get too wrapped up in those charts - it's easy to look at minor differences and see them as gaping performance chasms.  In a dogfight situation, co-alt and co-E, a marginal difference in acceleration won't have a huge impact on the fight.  You've also left out some other important variables such as turn rate and some intangibles such as low speed handling and platform stability.  To put it simply, the Spit is pretty stable and controllable at medium and high speeds where planes like the Ki-84 and the 109s tend to stiffen up, and the Ki-84 is very stable and controllable at low speeds.  Good pilots in both planes will try to play to these strengths.

However, realize that a 1.5 second advantage in acceleration from 150 to 250 (which the Ki erases and surpasses once you go beyond 250) won't amount to any significant separation in an actual fight.  If you're having success building a perch against Ki pilots in the Spit VIII using such tactics, then the people you're playing against just aren't as good as you.  Don't blame the plane for that though.

The pilots are indeed a large factor, but I think if you do it right you'll be able to get away. It works for me all the time but I fly spit14 most of the time, not 8. I'm not saying I have not done it in the 8, just don't do it as often.

[Oldman731]

Don't get too wrapped up in those charts - it's easy to look at minor differences and see them as gaping performance chasms.

This is key, I think.

- oldman (good to see you +Todd, bigweek misses you)

[FLS]

Top speed is the only thing Ki-84 has better than Spitfire mk XVIII at low altitude.

You said the Ki was comparable to the 8,9, and 14. You said the 1 and 5 out turn it. The Ki out climbs and is faster than the 1 and 5 so it's hardly outclassed by them, it just has different qualities.

[MachFly]

Top speed is the only thing Ki-84 has better than Spitfire mk XVIII at low altitude.

You said the Ki was comparable to the 8,9, and 14. You said the 1 and 5 out turn it. The Ki out climbs and is faster than the 1 and 5 so it's hardly outclassed by them, it just has different qualities.

I never said Ki-84 was better than Spit1 & 5, I said that you can't really compare 1 & 5 because they have different qualities (I just used different terminology).


In the post that you quoted I was specifically comparing Ki-84 and Spit8.  

[Dead Man Flying]

This is key, I think.

- oldman (good to see you +Todd, bigweek misses you)

Hey, Oldman.  Big Week is still up?!?  What's the address?

[Krusty]

You spike the G meter, you'll rip the wings off. Doesn't mean the bullets are the same as Gs. I don't think you can make that link without HTC chiming in either way.

Most of the times I'm unloading tons of ammo into a spit it's at slower speeds and they could not spike the G meter to rip wings off no matter how hard they pull. Only times I've ever done that are in nose down high speed manuvers or doing something with a lot of smash. Seems not to be an issue in the lower half of the envelope.


So there ya go... You're flying it too fast!!!