Road to Rangoon Aircraft Discussion (A6M2 vs Hurricane mk I)

[WldWeasl]

All fair points of discussion.  Like I said, I'm a scenario noob and I'm sure there was discussion about substitutes, I wasn't so much concerned about variants, as I was about making sure (as accurately as possible) that deviations we're similar...(if JAAF had cannons in Rangoon and the AVG et. al. did not, then it should be as close to the same as possible for this scenario)

[skribetm]

the only solution to this argument is to have an accurate plane set.
until then, scenarios should be designed around available aircraft.

AHII is at it's best when immersion sets in. but scenarios aren't the bread n butter.
so HTC panders to the MA crowd more, because thats what pays the bills.

i haven't even signed up for this event..  

[Brooke]

Scenarios are an attempt to give people a taste of the historical fighting as best we can manage, using what is available and making consessions to playability (since, of course, without that, we'd have no players).  Thus, no scenario is perfectly realistic.  But if you get done with a fight, and think to yourself, "Man!  That was like this mission I read about!" -- and if you had fun -- then the scenario is a success.

To skip a scenario because it has plane substitution strikes me as missing the forest for the trees.

Availability of planes is only one item among many such as having GPS in the cockpit, not having to worry about weather or much about visibility compared to real life, not having to worry about death or injury or physical endurance, not having any physical problems at extreme altitudes, never any 6-hour missions, no battles set up for 10:1 odds, planes always being 100% maintained, ammo and fuel always being good, full knowledge of what you are up against and when, and sides being balanced so that each side has its chance to prevail.

Also, AH has an excellent and impressively large list of aircraft, but it can't do every single one that served in WWII.  If we were to restrict ourselves only to battles where we needed no plane substitution or deletion at all, we would run no Battle of Britain (lacking the He 111), no Flying Tigers (lacking early-war Japanese stuff), nothing in North Africa (lacking some Italian planes), nothing in the Mediterranian (lacking things like the Beaufighter and some Italian planes), nothing on the Eastern Front (where 80% or more of the European fighting of WWII took place, by the way), no Coral Sea or Midway (lacking the TBD), etc.

As an example, what is the most-realistic scenario?  I think it's Coral Sea.  Similar number and type of ships as history, same number of pilots on each side as history, as close to weather of those days as can be crafted in the game (moreso than any other scenario), and all the same plane types as history -- except that we use the TBM for the TBD.  It's a significant change, yes, but still overall Coral Sea has fewer deviations from history than others.

Of course, I realize that there can be people who like a particular scenario but not another.

Me, though -- I like them *all*! 

[Krusty]

The c.202 isn't a good fit for any Japanese plane in this fight.  It is enormously faster and handles well at very high speeds, which is radically different than the Japanese plane set.  Armament is only one of many dimensions to consider.

I understand that. But you realize it's almost the same speed and climb and turn rates as the Ki-61, but without the 20mm cannons, right? It's FTH goes up 1000 feet higher and drops off a little less sharply, btu fairly close.

Perhaps it doesn't fit the Ki-43 because of this top speed, but surely it fits the Ki-44 better?

Pulling from Wiki:

"Ki-44 Type I
was powered by a 930 kW (1,250 hp) Nakajima Ha-41 engine, and had a maximum speed of 580 km/h (363 mph). Armament consisted of two 7.7 mm (.303 in) Type 89 machine guns and two 12.7 mm (.50 in) Ho-103 machine guns placed in the wing."

Well, you compare the specs with AH:

http://www.gonzoville.com/ahcharts/index.php?p1=c202&p2=ki61&p3=a6m2&p4=a6m5

You'll see the C202 only does about 375 (12mph faster that Ki-44). The guns are right, just swapped positions, nose for wings. Its range is also actually decent, since unlike the c205 it doesn't guzzle so bad. Fuel multiplier tuned down a little would give it good legs.


Seems like a darned good match. I'm shocked I never looked at it as a substitute sooner!



EDIT: I agree with your comments about plane subs, though. We do what we can with what we have. Sometimes it's great fun. Sometimes it's lacking. It's always a learning experience!


EDIT2: The Ki-44II was 376mph top speed and had 4x 12.7 mm MGs. Also a close fit to C202! Wish I'd learned this ages back!

[Brooke]

Perhaps it doesn't fit the Ki-43 because of this top speed, but surely it fits the Ki-44 better?

True, speed and armament (at least for one variant of the Ki-44) seem a good match.

[Krusty]

It never really sat right with me going up against A6M5bs last Rangoon scenario in my P-40B, because while they had speed, they also had quite the punch. The real Japanese forces had to contend with much lighter armaments. 2x17.7mm as the main guns is a far cry from 2x 20mm with 240 rounds of 20mm. Against a P-40 they ran the risk of running out of ammo and having to bug out.

Only down side is the C2 isn't nearly as manuverable, and the Ki44 had butterfly flaps, if I recall. I'd be willing to give it a shot, though!

[Brooke]

I think that the a6m5 hits weird control issues at a lower speed than the a6m2.  (In fact, unless you are quick with trim, it used to be the case that you could find yourself in real trouble due to uncorrectable roll and pitch.)  In a P-40, I'd much rather go up against a Zero than a C.202.  Zeros handle very poorly at speed -- the C.202 is not only much, much faster overall, but handles well at high speed, which to me is a greater threat.

[HighTone]

I think that the a6m5 hits weird control issues at a lower speed than the a6m2.  (In fact, unless you are quick with trim, it used to be the case that you could find yourself in real trouble due to uncorrectable roll and pitch.)  In a P-40, I'd much rather go up against a Zero than a C.202.  Zeros handle very poorly at speed -- the C.202 is not only much, much faster overall, but handles well at high speed, which to me is a greater threat.

I agree.


Plus the A6M5 should benefit from being a Japanese aircraft. That and the C.202's high speed handling is why I think the Zeke 5 is a better fit.

[Krusty]

It's a greater threat until it runs out of ammo or gas.

But, to be fair, the plane it would be substituing for is SUPPOSED to be a threat. That's the role the Ki44 plays.

[Nefarious]

A6M3 to be added soon. Perhaps its a better sub than A6M5b?

[Fencer51]

Possibly it might be a better solution than an A6M5..

Two problems however.

Just like terrains we are not going to design around a plane that while "on the way" it is not yet released.

Secondly we have already begun registration and people are signing up for an aircraft already advertised, changing it at this stage would not be something we would consider lightly.

[Nefarious]

Just mentioning it... Carry on. 

[Brooke]

Yep, it doesn't work to change a ride someone has already signed up for.

The most to do in that regard is to reduce some of the unregistered spots and add some of another aircraft as a new, separate unit.  That also isn't something to do lightly, though.

[Krusty]

Possibly it might be a better solution than an A6M5..

Two problems however.

Just like terrains we are not going to design around a plane that while "on the way" it is not yet released.

Secondly we have already begun registration and people are signing up for an aircraft already advertised, changing it at this stage would not be something we would consider lightly.

That's a recurring problem. The thing is you never announce them far enough ahead of time to allow and discussion that brings up these types of things.

For example the P-47 overload ammo on the last scenario. Simple enough to disable, right? But the logic is "folks have already started training with that" and so the rules aren't changed the setup remains frozen in time.


Only, we can't discuss it unless we know about it, you see? It's a catch 22. By the next time such a scenario gets dusted off these long-forgotten but valid ideas/discussions are lost in time.

[Fencer51]

Krusty, I will be happy to send you an application for the CM Team.