Smash and Grab

[Vudak]

then why do people complain when we play the strategic aspect of AH? it is common military strategy to use numbers to your advantage. the russian did it during the war. do you call them skilless for doing that i'd think not. the same thing for the US navy in WW2 they would gang up of zekes 2 or 3 to 1 to take down 1 zeke. numbers are apart of military strategy, and it works just aswell in this War Game. i say to those who complain about it. play games like blitzkrieg or axis and allies for a while then tell me that using numbers is being skilless.

Actually, I do think that people would tend to call armies that rely on numbers less skilled than those who do not.  Boudicca had a mob; Paulinus was skilled.

You may very well accomplish your goals with a mob, but do not expect people to think highly of you for doing it.

Many people claim that they don't care what other people think of them.  These boards are damning evidence that many people who claim this are liars.

[kvuo75]

Actually, I do think that people would tend to call armies that rely on numbers less skilled than those who do not.  Boudicca had a mob; Paulinus was skilled.

You may very well accomplish your goals with a mob, but do not expect people to think highly of you for doing it.

Many people claim that they don't care what other people think of them.  These boards are damning evidence that many people who claim this are liars.

dammit, that is sig material. 

[moot]

I said I would take the bait and I did, but I guess I am missing your point.
...
The word war can be used to describe the game dynamics of Aces High.  On the front page of the website it states "A war rages on the ground and at sea".

But that's all Marketing or semantics... Why don't they call sports war?  Why aren't steroids and nootropics allowed in sports?  Why couldn't Nazi Germany call Time Out?   Because it wasn't a war, and the analogy between war and sports or any competition is only that - an analogy.  AH is competitive but you don't need to compete to get your money's worth.  It's leisure. You play AH to have fun, not even for any reason that's more serious than that. The comparison to war just doesn't hold up except if very narrowly limited to the strategic and tactical gameplay.   And then what's left of the war analogy there?  There's nothing about that gameplay that's more specific to war than to plain "competition" or "sports".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_sports
What about the most competitive things in AH?  Monthly rank competitions (with winners & runner-ups on front page), KOTH type events.. All of these better fit with sports.  The scenarios might be the closest and only part of AH that compare well enough with war (no time to argue that one).

So calling AH "war", as far as the MAs go at least, only persists in discussions about AH because of the coincidence that AH's theme is WWII.   The other reason to compare AH with war - that the competitive "cartoon war" gameplay/dynamics is like "waging war" - isn't a good comparison because that cartoon war gameplay doesn't fit any better the word "war" than it does the word "competition".  Those dynamics are closer to "game theory" than "war".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_theory
That's not some philosophical abstraction... Because whatever aspect you take to look at AH, it remains just people hooked up to a virtual world by sitting in front of their computer.  The only differences from Solitaire are that the rules and possible actions are much more elaborate, and the theme is WWII.

If you have two explanations or definitions for something, and one doesn't fit any better than (eg) a dozen other definitions or descriptions, while the other fits almost perfectly IE clearly better than those dozen other descriptions, the former isn't a "good" description or definition (this is also how you basically recognize that a sci. hypothesis is probably bad - it's not markedly better than any other).  The AH cartoon war is only analogous to real war making.

As for the written rules for Aces High.  Please post the link to them, I would love to read them.  I know of the forum rules and I know how HiTech feels about cheating and spying, which I agree with, but all this came from posts in the forum.  I have never seen any written rules concerning game play.  So if we have rules as they have in sports, I would like to see them so I can make sure not to violate them.

The rules of AH are rigged as far as HTC can manage.  Those rules they can't rig (the game's very programming code) they make difficult to break: side switching limit, IP logging for double accounts and free trial duping, text/vox abuse, vulching/killing a dummy account, griefing EG incessantly turning CV when people landing or taking control of CV and sticking it on PT boat spawn or just under shore battery or whatever, etc. 


TLDR:
Nobody's seriously "worked up" about people calling AH war.  It's just a seriously bad analogy.  You could literally just as well call it a game or a competition.  And then the whole "unfair" bandwagon of connotations of the word "war" derail all the "anti-multiplayer gameplay" pure strategists.

[bmwgs]

But that's all Marketing or semantics...

So the front page of the website does not describe the game, it is only a Marketing ploy?

Why aren't steroids and nootropics allowed in sports?

In some games due to the lack of enforcement they essentially are.  

Why don't they call sports war?

Might want to look of the definition of "sport(s)", it may surprise you.  Actually I have heard the word "war" used in sports competition.

Why couldn't Nazi Germany call Time Out?   Because it wasn't a war, and the analogy between war and sports or any competition is only that - an analogy.

Have no idea, has nothing to do with this discussion.  I am talking about the definition of the word "WAR" and how the definition of the word applies to the game dynamics of Aces High.

The comparison to war just doesn't hold up except if very narrowly limited to the strategic and tactical gameplay.  

I'm not comparing anything, I just read the definition of the word.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_sports
What about the most competitive things in AH?  Monthly rank competitions (with winners & runner-ups on front page), KOTH type events.. All of these better fit with sports.

I have read for years in this forum that score doesn't matter.  I guess it really does.  Actually it fits better with games not sports.

So calling AH "war", as far as the MAs go at least, only persists in discussions about AH because of the coincidence that AH's theme is WWII.

Has nothing to do with coincidence, it all about the definition.

The other reason to compare AH with war - that the competitive "cartoon war" gameplay/dynamics is like "waging war" - isn't a good comparison because that cartoon war gameplay doesn't fit any better the word "war" than it does the word "competition".  Those dynamics are closer to "game theory" than "war".

Might want to reread the definition of the word "war".  I give you a hint, the word "competition" is in there.

That's not some philosophical abstraction... Because whatever aspect you take to look at AH, it remains just people hooked up to a virtual world by sitting in front of their computer.

Actually in my opinion it would be more descriptive if you stated

That's not some philosophical abstraction... Because whatever aspect you take to look at AH, it remains just people hooked up to a virtual war world by sitting in front of their computer.

The AH cartoon war is only analogous to real war making.

Who said anything about "real war making"?  Wasn't me.  Talk about a play on words...

The rules of AH are rigged as far as HTC can manage.  Those rules they can't rig (the game's very programming code) they make difficult to break: side switching limit, IP logging for double accounts and free trial duping, text/vox abuse, vulching/killing a dummy account, griefing EG incessantly turning CV when people landing or taking control of CV and sticking it on PT boat spawn or just under shore battery or whatever, etc.  

In the link you posted I see it leads to a "User Agreement" but after reading through it I did not see anything about spying, side switching, second accounts, vulching, killing a dummy account or any of the other stuff.  Like I said in an earlier post, I know how HiTech feels about some of this type of game play, and again which I agree with him, but I still have not seen any written rules that specifically state it is not allowed, except for the hacking.

Here I will say it.  By definition Aces High can be described as a "War Game".    

 

Fred

[moot]

Yikes.  Talk about iterative approach.

So the front page of the website does not describe the game, it is only a Marketing ploy?

In your own words.  "Describe the game".  It's a game.  I think you're never going to understand what I'm saying.

In some games due to the lack of enforcement they essentially are. 

Not the point.... "Due to lack of enforcement".  Not due to sports encouraging it. 

Might want to reread the definition of the word "war".  I give you a hint, the word "competition" is in there.

So why not just call AH competition? 

Have no idea, has nothing to do with this discussion.  I am talking about the definition of the word "WAR" and how the definition of the word applies to the game dynamics of Aces High.

You mean that the things the word war stand for have nothing to do with this discussion?  Germany not being able to call time out is due to the things that the word "war" refers to.  The Bish/Rook/Knight get a time out e.g. if ENY gets bad enough.  How is that a dynamic of "war" rather than a dynamic of "game" or any other fairness-based competition?

I have read for years in this forum that score doesn't matter.  I guess it really does.  Actually it fits better with games not sports.

Not the point - does it fit better with war than games?

Has nothing to do with coincidence, it all about the definition.

Definition of what, AH?  AH is a game by definition.  The dynamics of it are only analogous to war, not defined by it.  HTC didn't set out to create a war, it set out to create a game.  If the game was "defined" by war it wouldn't be designed to be fair.  The "crimes and horror" of war are beside the point.  The pure strategic/logistic/tactical dynamics in AH are rigged to be fair.  By definition they are a game, not a war.  You can imitate dynamics from war, EG bounding overwatch tactic for tanks, but it is always within conditions rigged to be fair. So you are not "at war" any more than an athlete is "at war" with his competition.  Both you and the athlete are gaming your game's rules, and if you don't you're disqualified.  Unlike war-making. 

people hooked up to a virtual war world by sitting in front of their computer

What war, ever, was fought with things such as ENY and unlimited lives?  It's a game by definition.

Who said anything about "real war making"?

As opposed to what, fake war making?  That'd be a "game".


Nobody is "worked up" by people using the word war. It's just a bad analogy because the analogies of AH to war are really analogies to game theory.  There is no war in sports.  That's just sensationalist press.  Competition yes, not war. 

but after reading through it I did not see anything about spying, side switching, second accounts, vulching, killing a dummy account or any of the other stuff

See for yourself.  Give it a try.

[bmwgs]

Yikes.  Talk about iterative approach.

Nobody is "worked up" by people using the word war. It's just a bad analogy because the analogies of AH to war are really analogies to game theory.  There is no war in sports.  That's just sensationalist press.
 See for yourself.  Give it a try.

"Iterative approach", interesting statement.  Not sure what you are talking about.  It's simple, I just read the definition to the word "war".  Nothing repetitious here except stating how the definitions applies to game play in Aces High.

I guess my use of the words "worked up" may have been out of context.  I guess my response to Fugitive statement "Because this is a game, NOT WAR!" should have been, "yes, it is a virtual war".  I guess the exclamation point threw me off.  Does that make it better?

Now we have the "sensationalist press".  Where did that come from?  As for war in sports, I don't know about you, but when I was looking into the eyes of that Offensive Tackle as far as I was concerned it was a war.  

Moot you can twist it any way you want, but in my opinion, I still stand by my statment that Aces High can be described as a War Game.  It can also be described as a War Simulation if you so wish.  If I sit and think a while, I bet I can think of a few other descriptive names.  

Fred

[moot]

Edited the above

I'm not twisting anything.  I'm sticking to a single POV.  IOW the opposite of "twisting".

AH isn't any kind of war.  It's a game.  Why use one word when another is closer to the thing you're describing?  Game, competition, or sports, are all closer to what AH is than "war".  A war by definition is not fair.  AH does not simulate the unfairness of war.  War is by definition and in practice, supposed to be as unfair as possible.  AH is supposed to be as fair as possible.

another edit-

Now we have the "sensationalist press".  Where did that come from?  

"war in sports".  That's hyperbole or metaphor like you find mostly in the press.  IE likeness, not definition.

As for war in sports, I don't know about you, but when I was looking into the eyes of that Offensive Tackle as far as I was concerned it was a war.  

Yes but competition as intense as it is, is still a sport ruled by fairness.  If that OT drop kicked his cleats into your face he would have been penalized unlike in war.  Unlike war the principle is to compete on fair grounds.  Whether the other guy is hot blooded or a cold fish.  

"Iterative approach", interesting statement.  Not sure what you are talking about.

Was trying to make this conversation converge rather than diverge into fractal quoting.  No implied barb or insult.. Just mild deadpan comment.

[bmwgs]

Edited the above

I'm not twisting anything.  I'm sticking to a single POV.  IOW the opposite of "twisting".

AH isn't any kind of war.  It's a game.  Why use one word when another is closer to the thing you're describing?  Game, competition, or sports, are all closer to what AH is than "war".  A war by definition is not fair.  AH does not simulate the unfairness of war.  War is by definition and in practice, supposed to be as unfair as possible.  AH is supposed to be as fair as possible.

I was getting ready to respond to your edited post, but instead of making you wait since I have to take the wife to a doctors appointment, I'll just make this quick final response.

I have never said Aces High is not a game.  I said it can be described as a War Game.  Matter of fact that description fits better than just game.  Nothing in the definition of the word war does it state where war should be fair or unfair, so whether there are rules or not is irrelevant.

As for the unfairness in Aces High.  If if it is so fair, then why all the complaining about hoards, gang banging, vulching, hoing and so forth? There is no need to respond to this sentence.  It speaks for itself.  

You can call it just a game if you wish, but when I describe this game to my friends I do and will continue to describe it as a "War Game" and/or "War Game Simulation".  Just telling my friends that I play a game is not very descriptive.

OK, I'm done, I posted the definition and my opinion so all can read and draw their own conclusions.

This has been a fun debate.

 

Fred

[caldera]

Fact: I know of unhappiness in the V's ranks.  Squad implosion coming soon to an arena near you. 

Maybe they can form the fifth and sixth wings of your squad. 

[moot]

Come on Fred... Where in any dictionary do you find a definition that says war is fair?  The reason there's so much arguing over "war or game" is because the two are similar, right?  And (I'm saying that) one of, if not the, essential difference is that war is unfair.  Unlike AH is meant to be.

Complaints are complaints, not objective reference like dictionaries.  Gonna respond to rhetorical Q because it doesn't settle the argument as you say it does:
- Hordes are as unfair as ENY is meant to allow them to get.  If they had no unfairness to them they wouldn't be regulated
- Gang banging same deal, of course it's unfair.  What else would you call 10x Me 163 vs 1x P-40B?  Just a smaller scale version of Hordes
- Vulching you can only do if the enemy allows you.  You have to either win the fight to the point that you move the fight to their doorstep, or have guys on the other team who don't know any better than to keep rolling there instead of at the next field
- HO is fair.. Nothing forces anyone to HO.

The only truly unfair of the above lot is hording, and that one is only unfair in that you can get caught by surprise.  If you don't believe it's unfair, then imagine if a couple of squads like (i dont have much imagination) Muppets or The Few show up full roster and (you can do this with 32 players easily) shut down a small/medium sized map's front.  You literally can't get out of your ack without dying within a dozen seconds.  Does that seem fair?  Cause that's what you'd get.

So yes hordes are unfair.  There's more to it of course, EG are they unfair in the big picture?  They aren't. But "horde" is an even vaguer word than "war" as used RE: Aces High.

You can call it just a game if you wish, but when I describe this game to my friends I do and will continue to describe it as a "War Game" and/or "War Game Simulation".  Just telling my friends that I play a game is not very descriptive.

If the point is to just give someone an idea of what you're talking about, then no argument, of course.  But that's a different thing.  Calling AH by that stops being correct when you do it in discussion of AH specifics like the one Fugitive was in when you first responded to him.

The word war is clearly wrong as used by many people who pretend that because war was unfair, and because AH's thematically WWII, then AH should be unfair.... For their pet favorite part of the game.
 

[waystin2]

Maybe they can form the fifth and sixth wings of your squad. 

Would take some serious change in their approach to the game. 

[VonMessa]

There goes the siren that warns of the air raid,
Then comes the sound of the guns sending flak.
Out for the scramble we've got to get airborne,
Got to get up for the coming attack.

Jump in the cockpit and start up the engines,
Remove all the wheelblocks there's no time to waste.
Gathering speed as we head down the runway,
Got to get airborne before it's too late.

Running, scrambling, fire,
Rolling, turning, diving, going in again.
Running, scrambling, fire, Rolling, turning, diving,
Run, live to fly, fly to live, do or die.
Won't you run, live to fly, fly to live, Aces high!

Move in to fire at the mainstream of bombers,
Let off a sharp burst and then turn away.
Roll over, spin round to come in behind them,
Move to their blindsides and firing again.

Bandits at 8 O'clock move in behind us,
Ten ME-109's out of the sun.
Ascending and turning our spitfires to face them,
Heading straight for them I press down my guns.

Rolling, turning, diving,
Rolling, turning, diving, going in again.
Rolling, turning, diving, Rolling, turning, diving,
Run, live to fly, fly to live, do or die.
Won't you run, live to fly, fly to live, Aces high!!!

 

[bmwgs]

Come on Fred... Where in any dictionary do you find a definition that says war is fair?  

Where did I say this?

Fred

[TOMCAT21]

Isn't this a simulation rather than a game ?

[moot]

Where did I say this?

Fred

What is the point of saying that no dictionary includes "unfair" in the description of "War", other than to say that war by definition isn't necessarily unfair?