A philosophical question

[Krusty]

I think to be "REALLY good" you have to practice a lot... however I think the F4u line is relatively easy mode ever since the super-flap-update made it a docile kite able to out turn spits by just dumping all flaps and working the gear.

Before it gained this "unique" ability, you hardly ever saw it used in the MAs... Just 1 or 2 die hard fans, and the rest just upping from CVs. As soon as it became easy (and the norm) to land 5 kill streaks in one with little effort, I think it lost a lot of that mystique that goes with the harder-to-fly planes.


That said, with *any* plane if you want to get really good you have to put in the time. But if you just want some fun kills you can quite easily do that in the F4U's. If you're dying in this plane more than others, look to HOW you're flying it. Do you just ignore SA? Are you not manuvering at all? You still have to *fly* the darned thing, same as any other plane in the game. I think it's just lulu flying differently when in f4u's.

[EskimoJoe]

I think to be "REALLY good" you have to practice a lot... however I think the F4u line is relatively easy mode ever since the super-flap-update made it a docile kite able to out turn spits by just dumping all flaps and working the gear.

I call a twelve on the Krusty BS o'meter 

[Big Rat]

I call a twelve on the Krusty BS o'meter 

Does the meter go higher? if so, add some to it.   If it was easy mode, us trainers would recommend it for the new guys, but for some reason we don't.  Maybe becouse it's one, if not the busiest, planes in the game to fly correctly.

 
BigRat

[JUGgler]

Does the meter go higher? if so, add some to it.  If it was easy mode, us trainers would recommend it for the new guys, but for some reason we don't.  Maybe becouse it's one, if not the busiest, planes in the game to fly correctly.

 
BigRat

Any corsair PWNS any JUG equal pilots, so I would say the JUG is a bit busier!  Just saying

Not trying to hijack, just butting in 



JUGgler

[PJ_Godzilla]

I call a twelve on the Krusty BS o'meter 

I'll see your 12 and raise you a few. I refer back to Anaxagoras' invaluable sustained turn rate chart AGAIN and AGAIN. I'm really grateful this thing exists: http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,275682.msg3476536.html#msg3476536

The F4u-4 alone is the only version of the Hawg that even licks at the scroteybits of a Spit-competitive sustained turn rate.

This is not to say some acehole hasn't managed an instantaneous energy-draining turn in a hawg that outmatched a Spit (we need some E-M diagrams to see how they stack for that- praise be unto the AH Prophet of the Molest-ache El Nino Mal).

[fbWldcat]

If you are flying the same fuel loadout, eg. 75% for all.  The -1 and -1a are actually carrying more fuel then the 1D, Their are wing tanks in the -1 and 1a these will effect plane performance along with the aditional fuel weight. This may be your difference.

 
BigRat

Wasn't it you who told me that the F4U-4 distinguished itself?

I'm not saying you should fly the U-4, lulu, it's still a different plane in a class all it's own, but it does retain and gain E a LOT easier than the other F4U's. Like everyone is saying, go to the TA and get a few sessions from the trainers. BigRat and FLS know what they are doing.... Most of the time. 


They'll hellp you out, great teachers. 

[Krusty]

Anybody saying the F4u isn't one of the most manuverable planes in the game doesn't fly enough of the 80-100 planes we have in this game.

Don't bother insulting me or flamebaiting with what you think are witty quips (they are not, FYI).

Expressing the data in "ZSCORE" is dishonest. The turn radius is tighter on a F4u-1 with full flaps than it is even on a spit9 with full flaps.

http://www.gonzoville.com/ahcharts/index.php?p1=f4u1&p2=spit9&p3=spit8&p4=spit16

No misleading "Zscore" -- just pure turn radius.

Add to that the fact the F4u can drop from 450mph down to stall speed in less than 10 seconds with gear and flaps, forcing any overshoot, allowing instant drop to best turn rate against any thing that needs more time to slow down, etc.


You few commenting about me have blinders on about the capabilities of the corsairs. It is top 5 in terms of ease of use and ability to outmanuver other planes.

Naturally the trick is to get REALLY good you have to put the time in. But the same could be said for P-51s, Spitfires, 109s, etc, just as readily.



EDIT: It is also widely considered to be modeled inaccurately with regards to torque and stability. It is far far far too easy to fly compared to the real thing.

[PJ_Godzilla]

Anybody saying the F4u isn't one of the most manuverable planes in the game doesn't fly enough of the 80-100 planes we have in this game.

Don't bother insulting me or flamebaiting with what you think are witty quips (they are not, FYI).

Expressing the data in "ZSCORE" is dishonest. The turn radius is tighter on a F4u-1 with full flaps than it is even on a spit9 with full flaps.

http://www.gonzoville.com/ahcharts/index.php?p1=f4u1&p2=spit9&p3=spit8&p4=spit16

No misleading "Zscore" -- just pure turn radius.

First, no flamebaiting or insult intended. I've got a problem with your interpretations - and i'll detail here.

1. Z-score simply norms all by a mean. I fail to see how this misleads. Indeed norming is a time-honored and appropriate method for comparison . Multiply each by Anax' norming mean (and diff/add to his waterline) if you don't like the scale. This is like complaining about systems of weights and measures. The well-versed merely convert.
2. Comparing turn radius is misleading since it doesn't account for the fact that the critical factor in developing a firing angle is turn RATE. The speeds at which those radii occur is different. That's why, while the radii may be equal, the Spit will develop angle on the F4u in a sustained turn - if Anax comparative data is correct. I surmise form this that the F4u wingloading must be higher than the Spit's and that the Spit is developing more g and speed at that radius. On an intuitive level, if you and I turn in the same circle but I can do it twice as fast, who will acquire the other's six first?
3. The F4u's decel capability is impressive and NOT in question here.

[FLS]

Krusty the short answer is that if the F4U was "easy mode" it would be more popular.

[PJ_Godzilla]

Krusty the short answer is that if the F4U was "easy mode" it would be more popular.

Which leads me to remember to ask you something I've been intending to ask for some time: Your Avatar, is it from a "real" screenshot? If so, uh, how'd you manage that? It looks like an extreme tail-slide in the vertical.

[FLS]

It's real but like many real pictures it's a little misleading. It actually is a climbing tailslide but there is a horizontal component that you don't see because of the camera angle so the vertical movement appears to be straight up. In the film it rotates to a normal tailslide.

I'm not disagreeing with Krusty on his 'extremely maneuverable' comment. 

I do disagree with the notion that the FM is too easy because it doesn't match some people's understanding of anecdotes.

[PJ_Godzilla]

I'm not disagreeing with Krusty on his 'extremely maneuverable' comment. 

Me neither - though I wouldn't know since I refuse to get into one of those abominations. The 109 is a difficult enough ride. Once I've got tha tone fingered out, then maybe I'll strap on a the dark blue pig. 

OTOH, his comments re: turn radius aren't relevant to the question at hand regarding relative sustained turn performance.

[AWwrgwy]

Philosophical answer:

Because it's Blue.


wrongway

[mtnman]

First, no flamebaiting or insult intended. I've got a problem with your interpretations - and i'll detail here.

1. Z-score simply norms all by a mean. I fail to see how this misleads. Indeed norming is a time-honored and appropriate method for comparison . Multiply each by Anax' norming mean (and diff/add to his waterline) if you don't like the scale. This is like complaining about systems of weights and measures. The well-versed merely convert.
2. Comparing turn radius is misleading since it doesn't account for the fact that the critical factor in developing a firing angle is turn RATE. The speeds at which those radii occur is different. That's why, while the radii may be equal, the Spit will develop angle on the F4u in a sustained turn - if Anax comparative data is correct. I surmise form this that the F4u wingloading must be higher than the Spit's and that the Spit is developing more g and speed at that radius. On an intuitive level, if you and I turn in the same circle but I can do it twice as fast, who will acquire the other's six first?
3. The F4u's decel capability is impressive and NOT in question here.

Agreed.

If the turn is allowed to progress, the spit will come around the circle and catch the F4U.  Done deal.  It doesn't matter if the F4U is using flaps, slowing down quickly, etc.  The F4U has a fairly small window to capitalize on the spit if it can get to its best turn rate while the spit is above his own best turn rate.  Once that window closes the F4U is in trouble if the spit pilot is even remotely competent, especially if he's low.

Obviously, the F4U can slow down quickly.  It's an advantage, or a disadvantage, depending on how it's used.  An effective overshoot in the F4U isn't about dropping gear, or slowing down though.  It's about angles, not speed.

[PJ_Godzilla]

Agreed.

If the turn is allowed to progress, the spit will come around the circle and catch the F4U.  Done deal.  It doesn't matter if the F4U is using flaps, slowing down quickly, etc.  The F4U has a fairly small window to capitalize on the spit if it can get to its best turn rate while the spit is above his own best turn rate.  Once that window closes the F4U is in trouble if the spit pilot is even remotely competent, especially if he's low.

Obviously, the F4U can slow down quickly.  It's an advantage, or a disadvantage, depending on how it's used.  An effective overshoot in the F4U isn't about dropping gear, or slowing down though.  It's about angles, not speed.

Thanks for the corroboration.