the farce has lasted long enough...

[icepac]

"Perking" does nothing because some of the most unrealistic mission profiles garner huge amounts of perk points.

[Dead Man Flying]

I fight the planes with their weaknesses, but this one doesn't have any as it is modeled now.

Making a statement like this seriously undermines your credibility.

[MaSonZ]

Neither plane is superior to the Spit16. The F4U-1A has a significantly better top speed and turn radius with flaps, but is not superior in sustained turn rate (usually the important factor), and is vastly inferior in climb, accel, roll rate, to say nothing of gun lethality.

The FM2's situation is even worse. Its advantage is instantaneous turn and turn radius...thats about it. Think about it...a well flown 109 will usually dance on an FM2's head all day long...what do you think the easier to fly, better turning faster rolling, much more heavily armed Spixteen will do?

Spit16 pilots who have the vaguest idea of how to stay in a nose-to-tail chase, avoid scissors, and use their E-building capacities should usually be able to rape both blue planes Co-e. The fact that they often do not is more a testament to the noobs flying the Spixteen than any shortcomings of the plane itself.

if you werent so vastly superior to me, i would gladly do some friendly 1-1's to see this in action. Harder to fight 2 ponies in any plane then a lone spit 16. especially in an Fm2 where it takes forever for its E to be regained if it doesnt get a few moments. Only times i die to a spit 16 it seems...pilot error on my part. whether it be a bad decision or a missed shot.

I am still highly opposed to perking it. it isnt overly unbalancing, and would drive down the player base. new players wouldnt be as attracted. i find the LA7 easier to fly then the spit16. I'm not calling for the La7 to be perked, but if any plane gets perked here its the la7 in my book.

[Noir]

Making a statement like this seriously undermines your credibility.

nobody listed the weaknesses yet tho.

[guncrasher]

wings have a tendency to fall during sudden moves.  most pilots that fly 16 mostly ho, without cannon two 50 mg are useless.  get it below 200 and I can out turn with a pony.   

spit 16 is not even close to being the best airplane.  and if you get killed by it is mostly because you play the other player's game and not yours.

semp

[MaSonZ]

wings have a tendency to fall during sudden moves.  most pilots that fly 16 mostly ho, without cannon two 50 mg are useless.  get it below 200 and I can out turn with a pony.   

spit 16 is not even close to being the best airplane.  and if you get killed by it is mostly because you play the other player's game and not yours.

semp

+1

[BnZs]

Because new player retention would go down as the newbie players were shuffled off into less newbie friendly rides.  Period.

This silly argument again?
-There are plenty of a/c that are easy to fly without possessing such such "uberness". For years the SpitIX you mention below was considered a highly competitive, dangerous plane in the LW MA and was the #1 choice newbs were advised to take up. The more powerful SpitVIII is also available now. Anyway, using your logic, I could say that depriving noobs of Tempests and C-Hogs is hurting retention.
-There is no sign on the SpitXVI or any other plane saying "you must be this inexperienced to fly". New players can just as easily run into more experienced sticks flying the SpitXVI also, or experience the frustration when they try to compete with the uber spits in other rides.
-Perhaps most importantly, if you are arguing that the SpitXVI is so uber that it will allow a new player to bridge a vast gap in skill and gain victory against much more experienced pilots, then you are making a great argument for perking the beast.

I recall once, years ago, flying about in a Mossie looking for prey between a couple of fields.  I encountered an La-5FN, engaged and, once in gun range, killed it in less than 5 seconds.  And again.  And again.  And again.  After the fourth kill I landed and went somewhere else.  The La-5FN player was not learning anything other than Mosquitos have really powerful guns.  He wasn't living long enough to learn anything about evasives or trying to go aggressive.  He was just dying.  Now, granted, this particular newbie could have been upping Spitfire Mk IXs (no Mk VIIIs or Mk XVIs back then) but was instead, for whatever reason, upping La-5FNs, but I do not wish to make the initial part of this game any harder on the new player than it already is.

FWIW, a competent La-5FN driver will eat a Mossie VI for lunch, pilots being remotely equal.

I doubt that a Spit would have served any better in this player's hands than an La5, and to reiterate what I said earlier, if a plane type can bridge such a large gap in skill, then maybe it ought to be perked-or have its modeling looked at. I also sincerely doubt that player retention has much of anything to do with which planes or perked, or even initial success. Those who want to play will, those who won't, will not. I furthermore sincerely doubt those using new player retention as a debating point with me in this discussion are *actually* all that fired up about the issue IMO, but stranger things have happened. *shrug*. the only thing one can really do is maybe take a new pilot under one's wings now and again and teach them the basics.

[BnZs]

wings have a tendency to fall during sudden moves.  most pilots that fly 16 mostly ho, without cannon two 50 mg are useless.  get it below 200 and I can out turn with a pony.   

spit 16 is not even close to being the best airplane.  and if you get killed by it is mostly because you play the other player's game and not yours.

semp

Tell us Semp, what game do you play against a craft that has a better sustained turn rate and radius, better climb and vertical performance, vastly better roll rate, better acceleration, and equal or higher top speed? There are dozens of rides in that boat vs. the SpitIX. No one can name an area where the SpitXVI truly falls down. It can be out-turned by a few of the uber-tnb planes like the Brew or Zeke, but is vastly superior in speed and E performance to all of these.  The LW speed demons like the P-51 or Dora can outrun it, but truly have no advantage to offer against it in a maneuvering dogfight.

[BnZs]

10 perks for the XVI sounds ok which means say, 15 to 20 perks for the D pony.

Bit of nationalism showing RT? You can put that away, don't worry, I'm still an Anglophile, even if I think the Spit16 ought to be perked.

Why in the world would you perk the P-51D in the C-Hog range? And honestly, why in the world would you perk a plane than that 90% of the plane set can out turn easily, and most LW monsters can out-accelerate and out-climb, at a higher price than the SpitXVI, whose weaknesses or lack thereof have been discussed to death? Can you offer a reasonable explanation, other than everyone and his dog likes to fly the P-51D?

how many perks would you make the LA7 and N1K under this new noobs dont get to fly competitive late war rides scheme?

The La7 should be *lightly* perked for roughly the same reason the SpitXVI should...it's combination of speed and maneuverability means it holds all the cards against way too many rides. It is never about one single trait, but how the overall performance stacks up against the rest of the set in a dogfight. If it still went 380 on the deck but turned like a Dora, I would not be in favor of perkage. IMO, it should be perked more lightly than the SpitXVI because it nowhere near as easy to fly and has a miniscule fuel load.

The N1K should not be perked at all. While it has a great punch and is a good turner, at 325mph on the deck it quite slow by LW standards. It rolls like a pig also and its climb rate is far from outstanding by LW standards.

[BnZs]

Making a statement like this seriously undermines your credibility.

The only weaknesses of the bird in a dogfight I can identify are that it can be out-turned by the very best turners in the game like the Zeke, and that the faster LW burners can bravely run away from it.  If there is some secret Achilles heel to the plane, I'm sure the whole forum would like to know.

[kvuo75]

fuel? ammo?

[RTHolmes]

Bit of nationalism showing RT? You can put that away, don't worry, I'm still an Anglophile, even if I think the Spit16 ought to be perked.

nah Im just going by the unofficial perks based on unbalancing effect on the arenas thingy, I'll refer you to snail's stats

if there were perked planes in the DA for 1v1s, then it would surely be one of the highest perked planes. in the MA, cant argue with the numbers ...

[BnZs]

NOOBS!!!

Let's talk about 'em...everyone in this discussion seems to have a heart that bleeds for them. (heh heh heh) But okay, if we are truly concerned about what perking the spixteen would do to new players, why not bankroll new players some perks?

Or, and I like this idea even better, why not make ALL planes free for new players, up until they get a certain number of career a2a kills, say 200 or so? By that time they should have gained experience.

[BnZs]

nah Im just going by the unofficial perks based on unbalancing effect on the arenas thingy, I'll refer you to snail's stats

if there were perked planes in the DA for 1v1s, then it would surely be one of the highest perked planes. in the MA, cant argue with the numbers ...

If we go by Lusche's numbers, the P-38J and Ta-152 should be among the highest perked planes, considering the astonishing k/d numbers they turn in.

And here we are conveniently forgetting the fact that the Spixteen is the 2nd most popular plane (It might be #1, if the Spit family weren't split into so many models that were also highly effective. Or if most players were Brits instead of Americans.), and its k/d is typically not far off from the P-51D's, in spite of the fact that it is a slower plane more often flown by noobs in a truly suicidal manner. (upping under the vulch)

[MaSonZ]

Or, and I like this idea even better, why not make ALL planes free for new players, up until they get a certain number of career a2a kills, say 200 or so? By that time they should have gained experience.

in al honesty i seriously considered that...except for the 262's. of course this was a while back.