Torpedo Balancing - Pt. 2

[EagleDNY]

OK - so now we come to the speed, range, and warhead sizes of the torpedoes in AH. 
Currently they break down into 2 types:
1. American (slow type) which travels at about 34 knots for up to 4 minutes for a maximum range of about 4,600 yards.  Warhead equivalent to 4,000 lbs of damage (according to the chart by Rolex).
2. German/Japanese (fast type) which travels at 41 knots for 1 minute 40 seconds for a maximum range of about 2,300 yards.  Warhead equivalent to 3,520 lbs of damage.

Rolex notes that torpedo damage is 'double ordnance weight', but I suggest that it really ought to be a x4 multiple of WARHEAD weight, not the weight of the entire torpedo.  They way things are now, a single TBM torpedo will sink a cruiser, and 2 will sink the CV.  This is extraordinarily unrealistic, and if we adopt the hi-speed launch parameters I suggested in Pt. 1, it would be undesirable as well.  I suggest that the damage multiplier should reflect actual WW2 experience as to what it took to sink a ship of the appropriate type - realistically, it should take at least 2 torpedoes to sink a cruiser, and at least 4 for a CV (as those of us who play Silent Hunter can attest).

So here are some suggested changes:
1. The American (slow type) Mk.13 torpedo: 34 knots for 5 minutes (about 5,700 yds range, for a Mk.13 mod 0).  Warhead is 600 lbs (x4) = 2,400 lbs equivalent damage.
2. The German F5B / Japanese Type 91 (fast type): 41 knots for 2 minutes (about 2,800 yds range).  Warhead is 529 lbs (x4) = 2,116 lbs equivalent damage.
These changes along with the hi-speed launching should give aircraft and PT boats a bit better chance of scoring torpedo hits, while lessening the 'nuclear torpedo' effect.  Each torpedo hit is still worse than a 2,000 bomb though.

There was one other suggestion that I may add to the PT Wishlist - not all the PT Boats used the roll-off launchers that HTC models on our 80' elco boats.  The earlier boats had the old style (impulse) launchers that spewed a 21" torpedo out (anyone remember seeing these in the movie 'They Were Expendable'?) - these launchers were larger (more like the launcher on a destroyer) because they were designed to launch the longer 21" Mk.8 torpedoes.  These launchers were also supposed to accommodate the 21" Mk.14 according to the manual, but I haven't found any instances of them actually being used (yet).  The Mk.14 would be a nice torpedo to have on our PT boats - it had two speed settings (4,500 yds @ 46 knots, and 9,000 yds @ 30.5 knots) and a 668 lb warhead.  Getting HTC to model multiple speed settings on torpedoes might be too much to ask though.

[alpini13]

im pretty sure some axis torps had a range of 10 miles and german S-boats(pt boat counterpart) had a TBT target bearing telegraph.in which you programed the course angle speed with your course angle and speed to see where to fire,which would be a good idea,unlees after you fire the cv turns.....or changes speed....? hey that might be better

[alpini13]

here is one such air dropped parachute italian torpedoes with a range of about 9 1/2 miles and could be configured in a set run pattern these were used by the germans as well in world war 2;
 Aircraft
Weight 772 lbs. (350 kg)
Overall Length 8 ft. 6.5 in (2.600 m)
Explosive Charge 265 lbs. (120 kg)
Range / Speed 16,400 yards (15,000 m) / 13.5 knots (initial) down to 3.9 knots (end)
Power Battery
Notes:  Fiume (Whitehead) Torpedo.  This was a short parachute-dropped torpedo that ran in circles, spirals and curves.  Dropping conditions were about 150 knots from 200 to 600 feet (60 to 180 m).  Lacked depth control and lateral control was said to be "primative" resulting in runs that varied considerably in depth and were irregular spirals and curves.  This torpedo was also used by the Germans and designated "LT350" type.


they then improved this one for depth control,the germans called the modified version "LT280

[EagleDNY]

Oh there are definitely some better Axis torpedoes out there, but the 'air launched' category is a bit thinner than the submarine or e-boat launched category.  The Italian Fiume torpedo is interesting in that it would run patterns, but I think that was mostly for use against convoys.  If we wanted to get really creative, the germans had acoustic homing later in the war as well, but I don't know if that was ever dropped from a JU88. 

The Japanese Long Lance still ranks way up there, but there is no air-launched variant.  A WW2 torpedo capable of 20,000 Yards at 48 knots, and delivering a 1,000 Lbs worth of warhead - 'nuff said.  They did have a Type 91 (aerial) torpedo late in the war with 41 knots / 1500 M range carrying a 926 lb warhead that could be launched at up to 350 knots - but in AH terms, I don't think that many people could survive to get into 1500M range, and the 'Axis' torpedo we have now is kind of a conglomeration of the 2 most common types of the F5B and Type 91.

[Penguin]

Barring the addition of a torpedo aiming devive, I suggest that HTC add a slight homing effect to torpedoes to offset the difficulty of scoring a hit without a "torpedo bombsight" so to speak.

-Penguin

[Shiva]

Rolex notes that torpedo damage is 'double ordnance weight', but I suggest that it really ought to be a x4 multiple of WARHEAD weight, not the weight of the entire torpedo.  They way things are now, a single TBM torpedo will sink a cruiser, and 2 will sink the CV.  This is extraordinarily unrealistic, and if we adopt the hi-speed launch parameters I suggested in Pt. 1, it would be undesirable as well.  I suggest that the damage multiplier should reflect actual WW2 experience as to what it took to sink a ship of the appropriate type - realistically, it should take at least 2 torpedoes to sink a cruiser, and at least 4 for a CV (as those of us who play Silent Hunter can attest).

I really wish that I still had issue #11 of SPI's Moves magazine, a semimonthly publication on wargaming. The particular issue had several articles about their WWII naval game "CA"; one of the articles was about adding realism, and it had a table taken from WWII damage reports tabulating the class of vessel (i.e., DD, DE, CL, CA, etc.) with the number of torpedo hits, giving the breakdown of the result of  each number of torpedo hits.

[EagleDNY]

Back in the days when we were playing Harpoon they had some similar damage calculations for missile and bomb impacts as well.  The torpedo impacts were critical for flooding damage and causing a loss of speed and listing of the ship which pretty much made flight operations impossible.  Missile and bomb impacts tended to cause more fires, which prevented operations until they were extinguished, or would destroy the ship if they spread.  The quality of your damage control was a big factor as to how much damage you could survive. 

As interesting as it might be, I don't think the AH damage model can support this stuff though.

[Shiva]

Found an electronic copy, but the data is lighter than I recalled. Based on 15 actions involving torpedoings from the Java Sea battle on 2/22/42 through Empress Augusta Bay on 11/2/43.  Of 15 DDs receiving one torpedo hit, 13 sunk, one was DIW, and one had both maneuvering and weapons capacity reduced; of 4 that received two torpedo hits, all sank. Of 5-6 CLs receiving one hit, 1-2 sunk, the remainder lost some maneuvering capacity; 3-4 that received two hits, all sunk; one that received three hits sunk (The variation is because it was not accurately determined whether one ship took one or two hits). Of 5 CAs receiving one torpedo hit, one was sunk, one was DIW, and three had reduced maneuvering capability; of three that took two hits, two were sunk and one was DIW; of three that took three hits, all three were sunk.

With the DDs, the two exceptions to being sunk from one torpedo, Selfridge and Foote, were hit on the extreme ends -- Selfridge was hit in the bow and lost its bow section with two turrets, and was able to make only about 10 knots; Foote was hit in the stern and lost its stern section and screws.

[iron650]

Weren't the American torpedoes very unreliable at one point?

[321BAR]

Weren't the American torpedoes very unreliable at one point?

early to mid war they had some reliability issues yes

[EagleDNY]

Weren't the American torpedoes very unreliable at one point?

Yes, they had "issues".  Many ran deeper than they were set, the magnetic exploder often failed, and the contact exploder failed if you hit at the wrong angle.  The military had such low budgets in the 1930s, and torpedoes were so expensive, that they rarely fired a 'real' one as a test shot.

Fortunately we don't have to deal with duds in AH!  (Well, maybe just a couple in the MA chattering on 200 from time to time....)

[iron650]

Yes, they had "issues".  Many ran deeper than they were set, the magnetic exploder often failed, and the contact exploder failed if you hit at the wrong angle.  The military had such low budgets in the 1930s, and torpedoes were so expensive, that they rarely fired a 'real' one as a test shot.

Fortunately we don't have to deal with duds in AH!  (Well, maybe just a couple in the MA chattering on 200 from time to time....)

Do they fail if the pilot launching the torpedo dies? I can't tell everytime I die I can't see the explosion. 

[EagleDNY]

Do they fail if the pilot launching the torpedo dies? I can't tell everytime I die I can't see the explosion. 

Hard to tell since it is quite rare for anyone to actually get a hit with one anyway.  It would actually be nice if a torpedo exploded at the end of its run (even if it did not hit the target) so that we could all see where it went.

[iron650]

Hard to tell since it is quite rare for anyone to actually get a hit with one anyway.  It would actually be nice if a torpedo exploded at the end of its run (even if it did not hit the target) so that we could all see where it went.

I can't tell if they hit, missed, or even passed under. (Passing under happened several time in WWII). Also, I see torpedoes explode on CVs, cruisers, etc. I never see anything hit. It was very rare to see a torpedo hit a ship in AH, but in WWII they seem more reliable. Ack is the main reason. Those puffy ack gunners always hit me on my last 100 ft low stretch.

[gyrene81]

Do they fail if the pilot launching the torpedo dies? I can't tell everytime I die I can't see the explosion. 

yes...same as dropping ords or troops...there was beginning to be too many people doing some really gamey stuff with that aspect.

launch a torpedo and got to tower before it hits...the torpedo disappears.

found some fairly interesting technical info on torpedoes last night:
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/index_weapons.htm