Author Topic: Help with not being a circle jerk!  (Read 2094 times)

Offline Shane

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Re: Help with not being a circle jerk!
« Reply #15 on: May 20, 2011, 05:49:19 PM »
when i find myself stuck in a circle, i generally try to build enough e to go vertical  and at least force something to happen.  i will also try and use shallow yo-yo's and flap work (not always deployed as has been mentioned) to see if i can gain guns solution or the e necessary to go vertical.

i try to end it before it leaves the rolling scissors, tho'.  circle fights can be a chore, but they're also a good exercise in riding the edge. I'd personally never ask for a merge reset... not even in the DA, lol. I have broken off in a cricle i was clearly winning to allow the other to reset (than re-up), but that's not too often, and never in the MAs.

i also make use of the terrain when in a downward spiraling scissors often the other plane will pull up first, giving me an oppt'y to improve my position.
Surrounded by suck and underwhelmed with mediocrity.
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Offline JUGgler

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Re: Help with not being a circle jerk!
« Reply #16 on: May 21, 2011, 11:59:54 AM »
Nope. As TC mentioned, you did good job with E. True, it makes fights less exciting, but if other guy gets bored (or frustrated), it's up to him to adapt and find solution to break stalemate (if there), or equalize E (if necessary).




I agree with this, when I'm against "more turny" planes I use slight verticle adjustments to try and get the angles, nothing wrong with a more turny plane to use the luft if he has been bested in the vert. When in the luftberry the one who gets bored or flinches is the dead one. Most of the time the luftberry "forces" the "less turny" to try something else.





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Offline DOUG

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Re: Help with not being a circle jerk!
« Reply #17 on: May 21, 2011, 02:59:59 PM »
. Badboy has graphs that show each planes best turning speed.    
I give up on search. Badboys put out so much good stuff ,( 55 pages I think it was=)) I cant find the cornering speed graphs  :bhead  Can a geizer get a link?  :old:
Suns?
Anyone?
Bueller? :old: :headscratch: :old:
elfy
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Offline pervert

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Re: Help with not being a circle jerk!
« Reply #18 on: May 21, 2011, 03:15:17 PM »
Nope. As TC mentioned, you did good job with E. True, it makes fights less exciting, but if other guy gets bored (or frustrated), it's up to him to adapt and find solution to break stalemate (if there), or equalize E (if necessary).



The person who starts a circle is nearly always the person who is in threat of guns and out of E to keep their position in the rolling scissors, if they find it boring they should try and go vertical in the rolling scissors without enough E and let me shoot them simple!  :old:
« Last Edit: May 21, 2011, 03:18:10 PM by pervert »

Offline pervert

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Re: Help with not being a circle jerk!
« Reply #19 on: May 21, 2011, 03:17:36 PM »
I give up on search. Badboys put out so much good stuff ,( 55 pages I think it was=)) I cant find the cornering speed graphs  :bhead  Can a geizer get a link?  :old:
Suns?
Anyone?
Bueller? :old: :headscratch: :old:
elfy

This film has absolutely nothing to do with corner speeds.

Offline Debrody

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Re: Help with not being a circle jerk!
« Reply #20 on: May 23, 2011, 05:39:35 PM »
Uhoh here we go...
Dont you wanna post the films of the other ones?
I could get behing you in the scissors every time. Then the continous left circles started...  every time. I think its not for a DA match. For me outcircling the opponent is not fun, and i sukk in it. I lost, Pervert was better in it, hes so AWSOME. I only seen Rufio doing this (hell exactly the same) before.
But never mind, dont worry, i wont ask for remerge anymore...
« Last Edit: May 23, 2011, 06:20:09 PM by Debrody »
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Offline mthrockmor

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Re: Help with not being a circle jerk!
« Reply #21 on: May 23, 2011, 07:31:29 PM »
I think this was a great fight! I learned a lot by watching when the flaps come down/up, etc. I shoot down most noobs in the game, clearly this is the inner circle of 'sticks.' Much to learn I have, young padwan.

Boo
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Offline Widewing

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Re: Help with not being a circle jerk!
« Reply #22 on: May 24, 2011, 12:52:18 AM »
If you keep finding yourself in a luftberry i think the best thing is to know how to win in that position. It sounds counterintuitive, but keep your flaps up. when you get slow its the person who maintains the best corner speed that turns the tightest. The person who can maintain it the longest also has a advantage. It's important not to blow your potential energy, because in the end that could be the difference. Badboy has graphs that show each planes best turning speed. It may be boring but if it happens during KOTH, or some other type of competition your opponent probably wont let you re merge.   

Corner velocity is the speed that gives the optimum balance between turn rate and turn radius. Usually, it represents your best turn rate in degrees/second. Corner velocity is the minimum speed where you can pull maximum g. However, if you are at corner velocity, you are nearly blacked out at max g. Thus, this is great for instantaneous turn, but impractical for sustained turning. First, no WWII fighter could maintain corner velocity for more than a few seconds without trading altitude for speed. These aircraft simply lacked the thrust to maintain that velocity under high g loading. Eventually, your altitude will run out and it will be impossible to sustain anything close to corner velocity. Then what? Inasmuch as duels begin right on the deck, you can forget about corner velocity being a factor after your first hard turn or two.

You have to decide if you can offset a better turning pilot with a greater turn rate. You have to decide if you want to dump some or all of your flaps. Getting into a lufberry with a skilled pilot may not be a good idea. You have to discover if your opponent has greater skills at riding the stall. If he does, you will be dead in short order if you don't break out of the lufberry. To break out, you can't wait until the other guy gets much beyond your 9/3 line. You should retract some flaps and ease off the turn, getting the nose up. If the other guy doesn't do likewise, you may be able to build a quick E advantage while he goes around at minimum speed. If you do, you roll level, nose over and accelerate out of the circle. If you have timed it well, the other guy still has nearly 180 degrees to turn, level off and pull up flaps. That should give you enough distance to reverse back for another merge. However, if you are very good at riding the stall, stay in the circle and wear your opponent down.

Having flown literally thousands of duels, I've discovered that there are some pilots who will not immediately reverse off of the merge. These guys will blow by and run out 2k and then chandelle back with lots of E. Meanwhile, you burned off much of your speed with a hard reverse just as you passed each other. To avoid this problem, I used to do cage matches in the TA. Pick a large field. You take off in opposite directions. At the other end of the runway you both reverse into a merge. You cannot, at any time, fly outside the perimeter of the field. Thus, no running, no timid merges... You fight close in and usually on the edge of a stall. This, more than any other type of duel, will determine who has the better plane handling and dogfighting skills. One advantage to dueling in the TA is that when you get clobbered, you don't have to re-plane, which wastes a lot of time. Keep on fighting. Record everything in the event that there arises a dispute.

My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline Puma44

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Re: Help with not being a circle jerk!
« Reply #23 on: May 26, 2011, 12:31:50 PM »
Well said, Widewing! :aok Great description of corner velocity and how to use it in BFM/ACM.  :salute. CV is certainly a good tool to have in the bag of tricks.



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Offline TwinBoom

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Re: Help with not being a circle jerk!
« Reply #24 on: May 26, 2011, 07:43:23 PM »
when i find myself stuck in a circle, i generally try to build enough e to go vertical  and at least force something to happen.  i will also try and use shallow yo-yo's and flap work .

QFT i do same thing
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Offline Sonicblu

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Re: Help with not being a circle jerk!
« Reply #25 on: June 03, 2011, 12:40:49 PM »
I'll put in my two cents here?

Perv at the start of the fight you had more e you were overshooting him every time. He wasn't out turning you it just looks that way from the cockpit.

He was just inside your circle the whole time. You kept trying to turn with him all it did was burn your E, because you had to keep "trying" to out turn him which is impossible in this situation as he was inside your circle already.  

The best way I think is vector displacement roll. Or yo yo,  Anyway by just turning harder  you lose E and therefore vertical advantage you get lower and lower and lower at that point luftberry is the only thing you had energy for.

One more thing try a little bit more lead pursuit or turn more to where you imagine he will be. You were trying to turn behind him from the cockpit view.
by the time the turn was made you were way out of position.

If you are already in it. The same thinking that got you there won't solve it.

Notice quicker and I go nose down wep if I have it get as much e as possible then turn back and use a barrel roll as he goes for guns solution. Couple of choices he goes with and back in rolling scissors, or he over shoots and you get a gun solution, If it is close I will never burn e on the first snapshot I just go for same set up burn his e first then kill.

I can't help with the circle thing as I only have references for loosing if I get stuck in it. LOL :airplane: :joystick: :airplane: :joystick:

Last time it happened I was in a 1-a and spade walked a 38 right around my circle and i started right behind him barely out of gun solution.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2011, 12:48:39 PM by Sonicblu »

Offline Sonicblu

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Re: Help with not being a circle jerk!
« Reply #26 on: June 03, 2011, 01:13:05 PM »
Quote
Who starts the turn first though? And why?


The guy who has more E but loses it trying to turn inside his own circle. It just can't be done. I had the same problem, my issue was what I thought I was seeing from the cockpit.  You think he is out turning you so you turn harder. You can't believe how the hell he got around so quick no way he can turn his plane the fast. YOUR RIGHT he isn't. he is slower and makes a smaller circle he was really lag pursuit slower and could turn tighter, all you were doing was overshooting and turning in front of him. Doing most of the turning for him. So the harder you try the more E you lose, the only option you have left is the circle because that's all the E you have. You didn't do it because you wanted to you did it because you had to.

Now that I know what happens If he is " out turning me " It is a sign I have more E so I go vertical and roll to displace my energy
If you try to turn with him, you are wasting your energy


 Put on trails in video and look from 3d perspective. look at his speed to yours after the first two merges. Its a perspective thing.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2011, 01:23:39 PM by Sonicblu »