Author Topic: A more strategic AvA (feedback requested)  (Read 2793 times)

Offline 1azbaer

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Re: A more strategic AvA (feedback requested)
« Reply #15 on: June 11, 2011, 04:00:02 PM »
 We are asked for our thoughts about the current idea, I don't agree with it so I am now being ridiculed for it :huh. Perk points what are they?  Perks points mean absolutely nothing in the AVA never have and hopefully never will.

I fly the AVA about 95 % of time so I have seen what works and what doesn't. (Always have since the Combat Arena days in Aces High I)

The AVA has always been a small group of dedicated players who for the most part appreciate  the volunteer work the Staff puts in. 

The war thing has been tried once before and about a week, problem was the map never rotated, numbers dwindled.

 I will just wait and see what happens, but usually we go though this once a year, "we need to change the AVA make more appealing for others to come in" and which bring in MA regulars only to hasten the regulars to find other things to do till the MA'ers go home. And then its usually its a year long effort to rebuild the numbers.   So try it. see what happens, try to surprise me.


Offline Chilli

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Re: A more strategic AvA (feedback requested)
« Reply #16 on: June 11, 2011, 05:40:29 PM »
vote Drop it. a few nights  flew in bombers to strike teh strats  but tehy were all ready burning on both sides. 
What s pack the ava   Jet week, WWI week and squad night. What empties it out, BOB map and heavy rotation of PTO maps.

1azbeer,

Did you understand the objectives?  Your post suggested that you saw that strats were already hit.  To play the hand that was dealt last week, you needed to pull up your clipboard and check field status for your opponent's country.  There you would have seen all of the percentages of the strats that were your targets.  There should have been no surprises and certainly by all accounts Allies Radar was the only of these strats bottomed out to 0 % if I recall correctly.  So, I have to assume that you were looking for a target that had not been hit or lightly damaged.  The rules were changed to present an aspect of winning a campaign that did not involve the number of bases that were captured.

I am glad that you find some of the attractions in the arena to your liking.  I probably know you very well by your in game ID, but judging from your post, it did not sound like you were familiar with this new concept, so I used the perk system as an example of what not to look for in this type of war.  Basically, you wouldn't have many opportunities to hit fresh strat targets past the first day, because once the target was hit it did not rebuild.

That seemed to be your complaint, that you flew around in bombers and couldn't find a target.  That sir is a legitimate complaint.  As far as the country status goes it was by design, and a good sign that folks were actively seeking out their targets and the game progressed as one would expect a week's worth of bombing missions into enemy territory would.

I would make this suggestion, because I found it useful.  When looking for viable strat targets, maximize the object detail slider (which ever one is on top).  Once zoomed in you can tell where the undamaged buildings are.  Now, how great of a level bomber are you?  I usually compensate by increasing my salvo and spreading delay a bit longer and try to aim just on the leading edge of my target.

I too have been playing since AH1 and totally disagree with just about everything that you had to say in your original post.  This doesn't mean that either of us is wrong.  We just have difference in tastes.  Now, if that sounds harsh, then I am sure there are plenty that share your views and would agree with you and tell me that my opinion was off base.

We are asked for our thoughts about the current idea, I don't agree with it so I am now being ridiculed for it :huh. Perk points what are they?  Perks points mean absolutely nothing in the AVA never have and hopefully never will.

I fly the AVA about 95 % of time so I have seen what works and what doesn't. (Always have since the Combat Arena days in Aces High I)

The AVA has always been a small group of dedicated players who for the most part appreciate  the volunteer work the Staff puts in. 

The war thing has been tried once before and about a week, problem was the map never rotated, numbers dwindled.

 I will just wait and see what happens, but usually we go though this once a year, "we need to change the AVA make more appealing for others to come in" and which bring in MA regulars only to hasten the regulars to find other things to do till the MA'ers go home. And then its usually its a year long effort to rebuild the numbers.   So try it. see what happens, try to surprise me.



More appealing yes, but not trying to put off the regulars that do attend like yourself.  You say that Jet week and WW1 week bring in big numbers.  It also, chases away regulars that want nothing to do with jets or WW1 aircraft in dogfights.  What Jimson and staff have been doing is looking outside of the box of just having a dueling arena for historical aircraft.  The key word is JUST.  That means that you can still get your dogfights going but you can also contribute to an objective to win a war.  This is especially attractive to those of us who are not on in the peak AvA playing hours that seem to only last for about 2 to 3 hours.  That alone should signal to you that simply catering only to the FEW die hard regular AvA dogfighters is not propelling the arena in a competitive direction.  Players pay to play, so when they click that arena button, they are going to expect a rewarding experience.

Offline 1azbaer

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Re: A more strategic AvA (feedback requested)
« Reply #17 on: June 11, 2011, 07:00:14 PM »
I guess we will see.  since the fancy spread sheet to see who "Won", how about a one to show the actual numbers  of people playing?  Have the numbers improved?   

Offline Chilli

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Re: A more strategic AvA (feedback requested)
« Reply #18 on: June 12, 2011, 03:36:01 AM »
Some staff member may have the answer to your question, but these are stats that suggest activity to say the least.  I do have stats for the first jet week which was August of last year but not in any form that I could use it for a direct comparison.  In any light, I don't see what anyone would object to about having it both ways.  Jimson is working overly hard to make sure that whatever his setups include, they don't exclude regular AvA action.

Scores: Axis (Bishops)-Strat points 372  Kills 125  total 497
            Allies (Knights)-Strat points 206  Kills 248 total 454
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,314753.0.html

Now I do have some constructive criticisms, that my good friend Jimson, I am sure, will be glad to consider.  Your criticism of strat targets being burning, was legitimate.  If you would try and understand the whole picture, I believe that you would understand why the targets were burning and that was a good healthy sign.  Also, this concept is new and once you better know what to expect when launching bombers, maybe you would have a more favorable impression of this type of game play the next time it was run.

I brought up a couple of suggestion to Jimson, on how we might better even the matchup between bombers and interceptors, so that one set of bombers couldn't run the entire map.  Basically, the type of Early War and Mid War behavior that turns folks like myself off.  For the most part I believe the response was very positive. 

I am sorry that it seems to you that I am attacking you.  My intent is to shed light on areas that you may not be aware of or just weren't considering.

Offline AHTbolt

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Re: A more strategic AvA (feedback requested)
« Reply #19 on: June 14, 2011, 09:42:04 AM »
I dont fly in the AvA because when i first tryed it out months ago there was no point to the room except 1v1 turn fight duels or if you met someone at alt they screamed for the deck hoping you would get in a turn fight with them and would scream and cry if you BnZed them, i will not turn fight if my ride cant turn. I saw no point in the AvA room there was no objective nothing for a squad to strive for no objective to achive . i read the forms see the posts complaining about THOSE MA pilots that messed up my 1v1. I like what im seeing in that people are trying to advance the AvA game play and understand that not everyone likes to fly the MA but there is atleast there is an objective there. To those trying to grow the AvA i salute you and to the ones that stomp your feet and hold your breath till you turn blue because it is changing be carefull what you wish for for i would say close the AvA and devote the servers and bandwith to somthing that does advance game play.please forgive miss spellings.
AWWWWW CRAP YOU SHOT WHAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! In the desert somewhere west of Kuwait 1991.

Offline jimson

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Re: A more strategic AvA (feedback requested)
« Reply #20 on: June 14, 2011, 10:16:26 AM »
I like what im seeing in that people are trying to advance the AvA game play and understand that not everyone likes to fly the MA but there is atleast there is an objective there.

Thats the whole thing. While it is really difficult to have objective based play, we can't have an auto win war map change, we have no usable perk system and everything has to be done manually, we are currently the only arena that can offer different objectives than base capture.

The trick is how to do it based on an open play arena and not an ersatz Special Events arena.

Offline AHTbolt

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Re: A more strategic AvA (feedback requested)
« Reply #21 on: June 14, 2011, 11:27:25 AM »
Jimson that is true but as you know if things dont change its just another empty room taking up space. For the AvA to be a great full room you have to get the codeing to auto reset to a new map the coding is out there you just have to adapt it.
AWWWWW CRAP YOU SHOT WHAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! In the desert somewhere west of Kuwait 1991.

Offline captain1ma

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Re: A more strategic AvA (feedback requested)
« Reply #22 on: June 14, 2011, 02:48:42 PM »
why auto-reset? no one can beat the map the way it is now. auto-reset would do nothing for the arena. More players in the arena would do something for it, on the other hand.

Offline Chilli

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Re: A more strategic AvA (feedback requested)
« Reply #23 on: June 14, 2011, 03:37:30 PM »
Hello,

Thanks for the support and criticisms.  Two things to correct though.  Jaeger, the way that staff members use smaller maps and assign fields, the map can absolutely be reset.  Perhaps not in the last few months so much due to lower than usual activity, but still able to be easily achieved.   And AHBolt, the code is NOT out there to auto reset the maps in the way that a two sided limited planeset may work.  The maps can auto change no problem, the problem is when they do, the fields will have all planes enabled, and also the the 3 rd country has some effects ( I forget how that all porks it, but it does).  The result is that staff members use creativity to try and set win criteria that can be accurately tallied.

The result has been very positive to Challenges offered by Jaeger and others, but these are usually one time missions.  What Jimson and others have worked tirelessly to provide is the closest thing to a full time objective for the arena. 

My personal feeling (not necessarily shared by any of the AvA staff) is that the arena CAN present both objective play and historical dueling action.  But in order for both to exist and thrive (in my opinion) there will have to be small concessions to each style of play.  For example, radar, ordinance and altitude caps.  Any thoughts?

Offline TEXICAN

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Re: A more strategic AvA (feedback requested)
« Reply #24 on: June 14, 2011, 04:07:31 PM »
I still love the strategic game guys! :salute I'm just not a big fan of the pacific maps when it cycles back to Europe I'll be there!!
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Offline Cheese

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Re: A more strategic AvA (feedback requested)
« Reply #25 on: June 14, 2011, 04:55:08 PM »
Gents,

Salutations and Salute!

One of the main reasons I quit flying AvA was the way everyone 'games' the NOE and radar.  No matter what the planeset, like TBolt says, everyone always drops to the deck so you can't see them on radar and they try and lose you in the weeds.  You could have high alt planes like 109K4's, P51's and Jugs, and 99% of all fights are on the deck.  So why even use a high alt plane set?

Suggestion - either get rid of the red dots altogether (my vote) and just use the DAR, or have Icons show up when they do get NOE. 

One thing I notice between FA and AH - FA didn't have a 'zoom' view.  You could identify the planes from what I would consider a 'reasonable' distance.  That is not the case here in AH.  I don't know why that is.  Planes are very hard to pick up and track...(esp w/o padlock) - and I don't think it was as hard in 'real life' to track planes as it is AvA.  I read somewhere that HTC said that 'full zoom view' mode is 'actual vision and magnification'.   Hence when you are not in Full Zoom, everything is tiny and hard to see.

Another reason I stopped flying is also as TBolt says - a 'lack of objectives'.  Furballing is fun, but that seems to be all AvA is good for. I can get into much bigger, more intense furballs in the DA or MA if that is all I'm looking for.  For the AvA, smaller maps, 'doable' objectives in an evening or two, with automatic map resets (to a new map, or the same with an advanced war plane set) would be very cool.

At any rate, I may have stopped flying in AvA, but I still am keeping an eye on what's going on in there.  Keep up the good work.

Cheese
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Offline Shifty

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Re: A more strategic AvA (feedback requested)
« Reply #26 on: June 14, 2011, 05:20:24 PM »
For example, radar, ordinance and altitude caps.  Any thoughts?

People say they don't fly AVA because of the icons, people say they don't fly because they don't like the theater of war represented on any given week, people say they don't fly AVA because there are no objectives, people say they don't fly the AVA because the planes they like are not there every week, people say they don't like to fly AVA because of the attitudes about it being 1v1... Limit the radar, limit ords, and limit altitudes... Now we just gave people three more reasons to NOT want to fly in the arena.

We can have objective play within the boundaries allowed by the tools we have, and we can have furballs and we can have GV battles without putting more limitations on people. We could start with allowing some larger maps that can't be overrun so easily. Losing a couple of sacred cows like no enemy icons and going back to traditional radar instead of the full map dar we're using now. Offer people something that at least resembles what they're used to, only with an Axis and Allied setup.

Radar should be like the main arenas with single stations being able to be knocked out for given period of time. Ords should only be limited for historical reasons such as TBMs not having rockets on a Midway setup. Altitude restrictions is just another way of telling people how to fly and that's never attracted people. We should present the arena in terms of what people can do instead of what they can't do. The way we operate right now we're like a small mom and pops fish restaurant sitting next to a bright and shiny brand new Red Lobster. Only in our case the Red Lobster is the Main Arena. They have a huge neon sign a well lit parking lot and a brightly lit restaurant. While we're sitting around with the lights off expecting to be noticed. You want more people you're going to have to offer them more of what they like. If you're not willing to do that and want to stick to your own personal preferences... Get use to sitting in the dark alone. These are my opinions only not that of the rest of the AVA staff.
YMMV.

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Offline jimson

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Re: A more strategic AvA (feedback requested)
« Reply #27 on: June 14, 2011, 05:55:04 PM »
Jimson that is true but as you know if things dont change its just another empty room taking up space. For the AvA to be a great full room you have to get the codeing to auto reset to a new map the coding is out there you just have to adapt it.
The reason we cannot use the auto reset function because it will default to an everything enabled 3 country set up, also we cannot choose which map it rotates to.

This would take some development by HTC and we have no control over this.

The best way we can mimic this is to set objectives and once they are reached, manually change the set up

Offline 1azbaer

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Re: A more strategic AvA (feedback requested)
« Reply #28 on: June 14, 2011, 10:59:50 PM »
Biggest problem,  ACES has a limited number of Players to split between the 9ish arenas.. High htech needs to try something to bring new players to teh game as a whole.

Offline AHTbolt

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Re: A more strategic AvA (feedback requested)
« Reply #29 on: June 16, 2011, 07:50:44 AM »
Chilli the coading is there Fighter ace had it in there Historical room which was a AvA room that had different plane sets and victory conditions whi victory conditions was met the map reset to a new map so your statement that there is no code is just plain wrong so get your facts right
AWWWWW CRAP YOU SHOT WHAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! In the desert somewhere west of Kuwait 1991.