Author Topic: Ta 152  (Read 26561 times)

Offline Zeagle

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Re: Ta 152
« Reply #300 on: July 23, 2011, 06:46:54 PM »
I think moot's reply registered 1.0 on the Krusty scale  :devil
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Offline dtango

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Re: Ta 152
« Reply #301 on: July 23, 2011, 08:38:21 PM »
I think moot's reply registered 1.0 on the Krusty scale  :devil

You obviously don't know what hitech's Krusty meter measures. ;)  I'll give you a hint.  They're called cow-pies here in TX.
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Offline Tupac

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Re: Ta 152
« Reply #302 on: July 24, 2011, 03:07:39 AM »
I'm flying the 152 alot this tour......60 kills for 14 deaths, and I'm getting better every sortie.
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Offline ACE

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Re: Ta 152
« Reply #303 on: July 24, 2011, 11:32:30 AM »
I'm flying the 152 alot this tour......60 kills for 14 deaths, and I'm getting better every sortie.
Not a bad plane huh? :D.

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Offline Tupac

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Re: Ta 152
« Reply #304 on: July 24, 2011, 01:59:01 PM »
Not a bad plane huh? :D.




not one bit. I like it alot
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Offline Babalonian

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Re: Ta 152
« Reply #305 on: July 25, 2011, 07:02:48 PM »
Sorry Babs but.. For the first time I truly am in fact going to lean on my experience and say you somehow don't know what you're talking about. I listened to you give people guidelines during that big Germany scenario and I was almost going to speak up because overall it wasn't all that great (nor esp bad either) advice to 152 newbies, but I didn't because it was good enough overall and because it's no good to argue with command.  

Empty AFT is like catnip for 152's agility.  It's not arguable.  If this were some other subject where there was a lot of complicated room for misunderstanding of some kind, I'd argue it but... This is a night and day, black and white thing.  
For dogfight agility purposes AFT tank completely changes the 152's performance, for the better.  This is 10 years of flying the thing speaking.  I can't think off the top of my head of anyone else with experience in it that ever said otherwise.  

What are the positives of draining the others first?  The wings are slightly fwd of FWD tank.  It's a toss up between very small extra fwd CG from leaving em last, to small roll rate bonus burning em first.


Icepac - what are the criteria exactly?  The 190D is out of speed and lift by 30k.

 :bhead

Well, as you've clearly stated and that I'm in agreement with, there is no room for a lot of complicated missunderstanding on this issue for there to be much of any argueing about it. 

There is no point to further defending or clearifying my own personal opinion in regards to that specific matter (fuel wieght distribution impacts) on the 152's flight characteristics from within AH in comparison (and, I find, in contradiction) to historical pilot testimony or documentation and, for a lack fo better term, dogfighting 101 common-sence.  Again, I am in agreement with most everything you say wholey, up to the point that you're defending that it is exactly and clearly the same way in theory and real-world practice as it is within AH currently or at anytime. 

You, by adamantley disagreeing with my statement/opinion, are defending that within the game, in real-world documentation available to us, and theoretical practice, that it is a clear and distinct difference of Day and Night - Black and White.  I am defending my opinion that within the game it is the difference between sunset and twilight - yes both have their different shades and colors but both have shades and colors, are only brief moments at the end of a day that are only a few minutes apart... in other words I see more similarities in an AH-Ta-152 with a full or empty aft tank than is simply black or white or any of the historical pilot documentation claiming that they felt like it made a Black and White difference... if we can't come to agreement on that, then we can't, but could you please demonstrate or elaborate, as I did, with your own examples or explanation of extreme distinctions and obvious differences with AH's Ta-152 in-game?

I really don't want to argue about this Moot, it feels truely pointless (not your opinion, just the argueing of the opinions), especily since I'm for the most part in agreement with you on most everything with the Ta-152.  Not putting words into your mouth, but I'm skipping ahead and thinking you too would more acuratley describe it, within AH, as being shades of grey rather than black and white/there and gone.  I think we both may see different shades of grey and I'll be content with that, but I can not agree with a black and white comparison as you defend.
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Offline LThunderpocket

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Re: Ta 152
« Reply #306 on: July 25, 2011, 07:14:28 PM »
just recently started flying 190s due to peer pressure.i was a little scared entering a dark alleyway but once i went in it wasnt to bad.im still learning em but im not doin to bad.ive had a few good sorties.mainly the D-9 and the 152.but i got into that god forsaken tail drop thing and barely got out about 1k off the water.lost my lovley 15k alt :(
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Offline Zeagle

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Re: Ta 152
« Reply #307 on: July 26, 2011, 07:52:07 AM »
I rarely recover from that tail slide (usually in the presence of a horde of zip codes in spit 16's...who are all pointing and laughing). But, I have learned not to get into it as well. You have to treat the TA like a lady. She'll get you home more often than not.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2011, 07:54:19 AM by Zeagle »
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Offline moot

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Re: Ta 152
« Reply #308 on: July 27, 2011, 01:03:22 AM »
Babs when you've read the development and short operational history, you'll see for yourself.  If you look up that couple of previous discussions you'll find me, then, saying that the 152 has to be wrong, because it's such an aberration compared to any other plane, to previous 152 FM versions, and to the 152's design reputation as the late war culmination of the Fw 190 line and supposed (historically) competitor to e.g. the Tempest.  And then read the following posts made talking with Tango after I read the books.

In fact when you read the development history it's overly hurried sorta like the 410 was rushed thru and then the gremlins both in hardware and in flight behavior, you get a totally different picture of that supposed "flagship" or whatever.  A specific example - when you read the gunnery trial debrief they describe something that's pretty much just like our 152's vague nose feel IE mediocre stability.

Why does a plane that was supposed to be the pinnacle of this impressive design family come out of the factory flying so unimpressively? If the design truly was what KT always intended when he drew up the Fw 190, why is it the opposite - instead of the design coming into its own, it's not even good enough to be used for gunnery trials.  You might think that it was because it was rushed and that the basic underlying design, somewhere under those flaws, was sound and that the development crew just needed to sort out a few errors like you would some transcription errors in symphonic orchestra's music charts.. and then everything would click and symphony would sound.  Except that's not what happened.  Till the end the 152 was flawed.
http://search.barnesandnoble.com/Focke-Wulfe-Ta-152/Dietmar-Harmann/p/9780764308604

All things considered the AH 152 matches its historical character.

In practice, in AH, the only thing I argued (and I guess you only skimmed my posts cause its said pretty plainly) and contradicted from your posts is whether/how much the AH 152's AFT tank makes a difference in agility. 
The 152's AFT is as black and white a factor to agility as I said.  The only shade of grey is the way you get a gradual improvement as the AFT drains.  Examples?  I've never recorded any demonstration because it's so self evident.  But if you look at the most extreme ACM demos I've put out, I can tell you none of them are nearly as easy if even possible with more rather than less AFT.  I have no reason to doubt it, literally none:  I can also tell roughly how much ammo the plane has left, and assuming fuel only in fwd tank I can also accurately guess how much FWD fuel is left just by feel (ie estimate to +-25%).  Another e.g. the D9 has the same dynamic: it's at its best in agility with max fwd fuel CG.

I couldn't put a number on how many times I've died in the 152 because I committed to knife fights too early - when AFT wasn't empty yet. 
Quote
Not putting words into your mouth, but I'm skipping ahead and thinking you too would more acuratley describe it, within AH, as being shades of grey rather than black and white/there and gone.  I think we both may see different shades of grey and I'll be content with that, but I can not agree with a black and white comparison as you defend.
Why speak in analogies.  AFT is nothing but ballast for dogfighting agility.  The less the better.  There is no redeeming quality about AFT fuel worth considering. The difference in performance does make it a life/death difference in committed dogfighting (not just bnz).
So it is black and white.

It is black and white and it's not just some academic debate.  If you're learning the 152, this is almost inarguably the one tip to know.  It's the sine qua non of 152 knife fighting competitiveness.  Without it it's just a slower heavier armed high altitude 190 variant.

One of the things I commonly hoped for (dreamed of) when I played was that HTC went back to lower fuel multiplier.  So the FWD tank would last longer.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2011, 01:16:56 AM by moot »
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Offline Vulcan

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Re: Ta 152
« Reply #309 on: July 27, 2011, 04:57:03 AM »
Same thing occurs with the AFT tank in the A5, drain that and unload the bb's completely (relying on 2 x20mm) and she's a different beast.

Offline Zeagle

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Re: Ta 152
« Reply #310 on: July 27, 2011, 10:59:04 AM »
   It's the sine qua non of 152 knife fighting competitiveness.  Without it it's just a slower heavier armed high altitude 190 variant.

One of the things I commonly hoped for (dreamed of) when I played was that HTC went back to lower fuel multiplier.  So the FWD tank would last longer.

 :aok
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Offline mtnman

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Re: Ta 152
« Reply #311 on: July 27, 2011, 06:09:19 PM »
Babs when you've read the development and short operational history, you'll see for yourself.  If you look up that couple of previous discussions you'll find me, then, saying that the 152 has to be wrong, because it's such an aberration compared to any other plane, to previous 152 FM versions, and to the 152's design reputation as the late war culmination of the Fw 190 line and supposed (historically) competitor to e.g. the Tempest.  And then read the following posts made talking with Tango after I read the books.

In fact when you read the development history it's overly hurried sorta like the 410 was rushed thru and then the gremlins both in hardware and in flight behavior, you get a totally different picture of that supposed "flagship" or whatever.  A specific example - when you read the gunnery trial debrief they describe something that's pretty much just like our 152's vague nose feel IE mediocre stability.

Why does a plane that was supposed to be the pinnacle of this impressive design family come out of the factory flying so unimpressively? If the design truly was what KT always intended when he drew up the Fw 190, why is it the opposite - instead of the design coming into its own, it's not even good enough to be used for gunnery trials.  You might think that it was because it was rushed and that the basic underlying design, somewhere under those flaws, was sound and that the development crew just needed to sort out a few errors like you would some transcription errors in symphonic orchestra's music charts.. and then everything would click and symphony would sound.  Except that's not what happened.  Till the end the 152 was flawed.
http://search.barnesandnoble.com/Focke-Wulfe-Ta-152/Dietmar-Harmann/p/9780764308604

All things considered the AH 152 matches its historical character.

In practice, in AH, the only thing I argued (and I guess you only skimmed my posts cause its said pretty plainly) and contradicted from your posts is whether/how much the AH 152's AFT tank makes a difference in agility. 
The 152's AFT is as black and white a factor to agility as I said.  The only shade of grey is the way you get a gradual improvement as the AFT drains.  Examples?  I've never recorded any demonstration because it's so self evident.  But if you look at the most extreme ACM demos I've put out, I can tell you none of them are nearly as easy if even possible with more rather than less AFT.  I have no reason to doubt it, literally none:  I can also tell roughly how much ammo the plane has left, and assuming fuel only in fwd tank I can also accurately guess how much FWD fuel is left just by feel (ie estimate to +-25%).  Another e.g. the D9 has the same dynamic: it's at its best in agility with max fwd fuel CG.

I couldn't put a number on how many times I've died in the 152 because I committed to knife fights too early - when AFT wasn't empty yet.  Why speak in analogies.  AFT is nothing but ballast for dogfighting agility.  The less the better.  There is no redeeming quality about AFT fuel worth considering. The difference in performance does make it a life/death difference in committed dogfighting (not just bnz).
So it is black and white.

It is black and white and it's not just some academic debate.  If you're learning the 152, this is almost inarguably the one tip to know.  It's the sine qua non of 152 knife fighting competitiveness.  Without it it's just a slower heavier armed high altitude 190 variant.

One of the things I commonly hoped for (dreamed of) when I played was that HTC went back to lower fuel multiplier.  So the FWD tank would last longer.

Having read through those books now myself, I've got to agree with your interpretation moot.  It was interesting seeing your past argument as well.

As far as the fuel tanks, both aft AND fwd tanks are actually behind the CG.  So as fuel burns out of the fwd tank (after aft is empty) the CG should still be moving forward/less tail-heavy (which is the opposite of my beloved F4U).  As the CG moves forward I'd expect the plane to become more stable, but have a less-authoritative elevator.  Is that what you see?  Is the plane more stable/forgiving?  Or is it more responsive, etc?  How does it feel "different", in your opinion.  I'm just curious; I haven't flown it enough to know.  The few fights I've had with it I felt my use of 3D "space" mattered more than the attributes of the plane (which is a norm for me, IMO), so again, I haven't formed an opinion on the 152.
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Offline STEELE

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Re: Ta 152
« Reply #312 on: July 28, 2011, 09:27:35 PM »

Go back and read the thread before putting words into my mouth.

My complaint is about stability and not about the 152 being able to fly high and fast.

Wmaker is arguing this plane yet he has only flown 2 sorties in it in the last 5 tours (134 to 138).

I took Zeagle's information because he actually flies the plane he is talking about.

When comparing the 190d, I clearly stated 30,000 feet yet many here have turned that into 40,000 feet which is a world of difference...........and not at all what I said.

The 190d is much more stable and able to intercept bombers at 30,000 feet than the 152.

Yes, the 190d will make 40,000 feet........but not well.....however it is more stable than the 152 even way beyond it's maximum altitude.

I flew the 190d and spit IX, XVI, and XIV over 40,000 feet today.......ask the 163 drivers who felt the need to dive out of icon range/dive in or be rescued by another fighter as they absorbed bullets this afternoon.

That said, the spit XIV (yes the 16 and not the 14) has better stability than either 190/152 at 40,000 feet even though it is not known for it's high altitude performance like the spit 14.

The whole crux of my observations is that the 152 is more unstable that it should be at high altitude while planes that shouldn't fly well at high altitude turn better and are more stable than the ta152......of course, they don't reach the same speeds.....
Yes, the spit16 way out-maneuvers/out turns the 152 at 40k,   can someone explain why , or how this is even possible??   :huh   BUt the sp16 is not overmodled one bit.  NOPE  :lol
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Offline Stoney

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Re: Ta 152
« Reply #313 on: July 28, 2011, 10:11:04 PM »
Yes, the spit16 way out-maneuvers/out turns the 152 at 40k,   can someone explain why , or how this is even possible??   :huh   BUt the sp16 is not overmodled one bit.  NOPE  :lol

Steele, either learn from what we're trying to tell you, or just stay away.  Ultimately, the answer is :  specific excess power.
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Offline FLS

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Re: Ta 152
« Reply #314 on: July 29, 2011, 01:04:49 PM »
The altitude record for a Spitfire is 51,550 ft.