Author Topic: Freakin poison ivy  (Read 3207 times)

Offline Shuffler

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Re: Freakin poison ivy
« Reply #105 on: June 30, 2011, 11:14:25 AM »
I and many of my friends have non-American (mostly Asians but the occasional Euro) wives. It's just a local and anecdotal thing but I think it's got something to do with leathery weatherbeaten, ridden-hard/put away wet sort of lot-lizard girls that seem to be kind of common here these days. I see a lot of 'em in this college town. You cite one variety - the pretentious heroin chic ex-konzentrazioneslager girl. I can do without the type m'self.

This is not to say there aren't many good American women, just that there aren't enough, what with the "undesirables". Those last should just keep hanging at the bars with their tethers and wondering why they get treated like dirt always. (haaaw, haaaw). Just look for the bullseye tramp stamp on the small of the back... then walk away.

There are women like that all over the world. My wife laughs when she the ol' tramp stamp. Advertising rental space. :)
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Offline PJ_Godzilla

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Re: Freakin poison ivy
« Reply #106 on: June 30, 2011, 11:30:29 AM »
So you've stooped to name calling, brilliant :lol

I have not turned your statement around.  You have.  You are contradicting yourself.  First, you judged these girls, and then you say to only judge actions.  This is a textbook example of self contradiction.

Your explanation of electronic tethering was just plain old condescension.

Your point on pattern behavior is unsound, and you find out why on this link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inductive_reasoning

-Penguin

Name calling? For penguina? Please.

As for my point on pattern behavior, no, it's sound and there is no induction needed.. I'm making the point that behavior and judgment of same are entirely separate from judgment of the person - and you refuse to acknowledge this for reason I cannot discern.

Try this purely deductive example:1. Mary wears a probation tether. 2. Probation tethers are assigned to 100% of people on probation. 3. Therefore, Mary is on probation.

Where's the induction? As for condescension, I deny it. You asked and I answered. Don't ask questions if you don't want 'em answered. I stand by my assertion that you can see signs of past behavior written all over people. You may disagree. Show me a woman who's smoked for 30 years and I'll be able to point that out. Don't like it? Develop your own criteria and live by 'em. Check back in 20 years and we'll see how good they were.

Just don't ask me to put on blinders and go there with you.
Some say revenge is a dish best served cold. I say it's usually best served hot, chunky, and foaming. Eventually, you will all die in my vengeance vomit firestorm.

Offline PJ_Godzilla

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Re: Freakin poison ivy
« Reply #107 on: June 30, 2011, 11:35:24 AM »
There are women like that all over the world. My wife laughs when she the ol' tramp stamp. Advertising rental space. :)

You're right, of course. I was in Iceland recently but that's a bad example - or too "good" an example, really. There's a low instance of tramp-stamping and a very high rate of Nordic Goddess there. Italy, otoh, especially Naples, offered a godawfully large contingent of "dock rats" doubtless more accustomed to visitors from the 6th fleet.

However, I note that "that kind of behavior" seems to be quite rare in the immigrant cohort of which I speak. Not, to placate the whatevah crowd, that there's anything wrong with any of it. Hey, it's just about that with which I choose to associate.
Some say revenge is a dish best served cold. I say it's usually best served hot, chunky, and foaming. Eventually, you will all die in my vengeance vomit firestorm.

Offline Penguin

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Re: Freakin poison ivy
« Reply #108 on: June 30, 2011, 02:51:28 PM »
Name calling? For penguina? Please.

As for my point on pattern behavior, no, it's sound and there is no induction needed.. I'm making the point that behavior and judgment of same are entirely separate from judgment of the person - and you refuse to acknowledge this for reason I cannot discern.

Try this purely deductive example:1. Mary wears a probation tether. 2. Probation tethers are assigned to 100% of people on probation. 3. Therefore, Mary is on probation.

Where's the induction? As for condescension, I deny it. You asked and I answered. Don't ask questions if you don't want 'em answered. I stand by my assertion that you can see signs of past behavior written all over people. You may disagree. Show me a woman who's smoked for 30 years and I'll be able to point that out. Don't like it? Develop your own criteria and live by 'em. Check back in 20 years and we'll see how good they were.

Just don't ask me to put on blinders and go there with you.

Name calling is name calling, there's no two ways around it.

Your point is a statement of the obvious.  It's like saying that an apple is very different from an orange.  However, my point is that at first your condemned and denigerated those girls (and not their actions, mind you), and then advocated judgement of action rather than judgement of the person.  Your blinder comment is quite ironic, as you seemed to have missed this great change in your argument.

Here is a quote of you judging the girls, and not their actions

I and many of my friends have non-American (mostly Asians but the occasional Euro) wives. It's just a local and anecdotal thing but I think it's got something to do with leathery weatherbeaten, ridden-hard/put away wet sort of lot-lizard girls that seem to be kind of common here these days. I see a lot of 'em in this college town. You cite one variety - the pretentious heroin chic ex-konzentrazioneslager girl. I can do without the type m'self.

This is not to say there aren't many good American women, just that there aren't enough, what with the "undesirables". Those last should just keep hanging at the bars with their tethers and wondering why they get treated like dirt always. (haaaw, haaaw). Just look for the bullseye tramp stamp on the small of the back... then walk away.
[/color]

In the above quote, one can clearly see the judgement of these girls as 'undesirables'.  Now, you can clearly see how you turned your position on its head:

Tethered... electronically, or at least fit to be.
Otherwise, All you can judge is actions. No, don't judge the person. Judge the action. The total history of action will write the book on the person, judgment of which is somebody/thing else's call. Otherwise, if Black Swan advances some notion of the Inner Dynamic (aka, the "heart of gold"), I now know that I need not bother with it.

My theme is coherent. It's all about behavior. You can try to peer into souls if you like.

You are openly self contradicting. 

Now, onto your notion of being able to tell what people were like based upon how they behave today.  Conider basic training in the army.  In only a few weeks, civilians are reprogrammed to move toward loud noises, danger, and bullets while simultaneously killing fellow human beings with a variety of weapons.  War reinforces these notions, and those who go through combat are never the same.

Your notion of the unchanging personality is flawed.  Otherwise, boot camp would never work.

-Penguin

PS: We're hijacking this thread, would you like to continue via PMs?
« Last Edit: June 30, 2011, 03:02:42 PM by Penguin »

Offline PJ_Godzilla

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Re: Freakin poison ivy
« Reply #109 on: June 30, 2011, 03:05:53 PM »
No, absolutely not. You're making an induction yourself. You THINK you know what was going through my head when I wrote this.

First, as for "name calling", it was never intended as diminutive. Fine, I'll call you Penguin. I'm really not sure why you care. People refer to me as 'zilla frequently. I don't take it as diminutive - even though it's a modification.

Let me explain wh yI see no self-contradiction and why I think you're making an induction yourself:

1. My evaluation of a person's past behavior, as manifested outwardly, is for the purpose of deciding whether they are a desirable associate. I'd draw sharp distinction between this and "judging the person as good/bad". After all, have you never deemed someone an undesireable associate yet also an entirely good and worthy person?

2. Even a judgment of bad behavior need not imply bad person. You seem to be making that equation. I am not interested in the extrapolation, just choosing associates.

The way it might work in practice is that you look at someone and get an intuitive read based on cues. Honestly, in most cases, my intuitive read is pretty neutral. the vast majority of people neither interest nor repel me. However, let's say I see a woman smoking, then hear her speak in a gravelly voice. I might say, that's kind of gross - and it is. Yet I recognize that doesn't means he's a bad person or even that I think she is. However, it might mean that I choose not to associate -and that was the nature of my guidance - choosing an assoicate. It had NOTHING t odo with evaluating the person as good/bad. That was the direction you took us. I had nothing to say on that matter until you attemped to put words in my mouth.

Now, I'll admit, in the case of a parolee, I might also be included to dismiss the person as a miscreant. Admittedly, that's a fundamental judgment. However, it's also exceptional. 

So, you see, my "switch" was not one at all. I discussed guidance for choosing your company. you changed it to "rules of judgment". I told you my own.
Some say revenge is a dish best served cold. I say it's usually best served hot, chunky, and foaming. Eventually, you will all die in my vengeance vomit firestorm.

Offline PJ_Godzilla

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Re: Freakin poison ivy
« Reply #110 on: June 30, 2011, 04:21:08 PM »
Now, as a following corollary and for the sake of the argument, let's ask you what you've got against someone discrimating enough to consciously choose their associates. Your reaction to such a concept seems viscerally negative, dare I say, excessively judgmental (and by transit, therefore also hypocritical)?

Yet I would ask you if you do not do the same yourself in choosing your friends? So why carry the pretense that such is bad or wrong?

You see, just because an La-7 can climb to 30k it doesn't... (and so on).

One additional point, beware the word "seem", for the chasm between seems and is often yawns. That's part of the reason I used it above. See if you can take advantage of it.

Otherwise, recognize I have not judged you a bad person for this entertaining exchange.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2011, 04:22:39 PM by PJ_Godzilla »
Some say revenge is a dish best served cold. I say it's usually best served hot, chunky, and foaming. Eventually, you will all die in my vengeance vomit firestorm.

Offline Meatwad

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Re: Freakin poison ivy
« Reply #111 on: June 30, 2011, 08:11:16 PM »
Who knew poison ivy had so many hidden meanings  :rofl
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Offline MaSonZ

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Re: Freakin poison ivy
« Reply #112 on: June 30, 2011, 08:19:11 PM »
Godzilla, i hate to pee on your parade, but if its a living being with a checkered past, there is a hope they can change. give them the right person, with the right reasons at the right time. seen it first hand a few times...  :aok

im not gonna get into a meat-measuring contest with you, it isnt worth my time... but just because the person isnt desireable because theyve had their share of sleeping around or what have you, doesnt mean they arent worth a chance. who knows... they could be the one you spend yer life with.

 :cheers:
« Last Edit: June 30, 2011, 08:22:54 PM by MaSonZ »
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Offline PJ_Godzilla

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Re: Freakin poison ivy
« Reply #113 on: June 30, 2011, 08:28:14 PM »
Who knew poison ivy had so many hidden meanings  :rofl

Are you insinuating we got off topic?

Consider how you might react if you were to see a woman with a parole tether and a bad case of poison ivy. Would you be thinking about trying to tap that or would you head for the hills? In either case, would you be making your conclusion based on some judgment of who she was as a person (whatever that means) or based on the emblems of her poor judgment with regard to woodland conduct? Would you make a mental note to come back after the poison ivy and tether were gone or would you write her off completely? Would your conclusion distinguish between your desire to associate with her and your judgment of her as a person?

Stretch? Maybe.

What if you were approached by a creepy looking dude with a beard and a bad case of poison ivy? How would you react if he approached, arms akimbo, and said, "Don't judge me! Give me a huuuug"?
Some say revenge is a dish best served cold. I say it's usually best served hot, chunky, and foaming. Eventually, you will all die in my vengeance vomit firestorm.

Offline MaSonZ

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Re: Freakin poison ivy
« Reply #114 on: June 30, 2011, 08:30:23 PM »
you see Godzilla... your one of those types. you see one thing negative and assume the world that person lives in and the life they lead ia negative one. youd be surprised how down to earth some of the ugliest people are.....
"Only the dead have seen the end of war" - Plato
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Offline PJ_Godzilla

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Re: Freakin poison ivy
« Reply #115 on: June 30, 2011, 08:37:34 PM »
Godzilla, i hate to pee on your parade, but if its a living being with a checkered past, there is a hope they can change. give them the right person, with the right reasons at the right time. seen it first hand a few times...  :aok

im not gonna get into a meat-measuring contest with you, it isnt worth my time... but just because the person isnt desireable because theyve had their share of sleeping around or what have you, doesnt mean they arent worth a chance. who knows... they could be the one you spend yer life with.

 :cheers:

No meat measurement required... My point had nothing to do with some kind of "I am God and darn you to heck." If you want the back story, I can tell you in PM. I'll say this: people DO change. I will also tell you, and I've worked with the "type", typically it takes some pain (often rooted in just the type of rejection I'm talking about) and, also typically, the behavior has to change before the thinking does not the other way around. Make no mistake - the world reacts to behavior, not inner dynamics. This applies whether it is a question of association or judgment. Like I say, I chuckle because I've got about twenty years of experience in working with people who want to turn their lives around (not the day job, for sure)- and would welcome talking with you about it off-public.

Some say revenge is a dish best served cold. I say it's usually best served hot, chunky, and foaming. Eventually, you will all die in my vengeance vomit firestorm.

Offline MaSonZ

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Re: Freakin poison ivy
« Reply #116 on: June 30, 2011, 08:44:47 PM »
my thougbhts are just the other way around, the person has to want to change before they will change. if they dont have the mental will/want/drive/self motivation they will go back to their old ways. my thoughts.
"Only the dead have seen the end of war" - Plato
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Offline PJ_Godzilla

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Re: Freakin poison ivy
« Reply #117 on: June 30, 2011, 08:48:53 PM »
my thougbhts are just the other way around, the person has to want to change before they will change. if they dont have the mental will/want/drive/self motivation they will go back to their old ways. my thoughts.

Yes. That's often called a "displacement" or spiritual experience. But it won't deliver - it only gets 'em in the door. It's necessary but not sufficient - my experience, anyway, at least with compulsive/habituals.
Some say revenge is a dish best served cold. I say it's usually best served hot, chunky, and foaming. Eventually, you will all die in my vengeance vomit firestorm.

Offline MaSonZ

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Re: Freakin poison ivy
« Reply #118 on: June 30, 2011, 08:50:10 PM »
Yes. That's often called a "displacement" or spiritual experience. But it won't deliver - it only gets 'em in the door. It's necessary but not sufficient - my experience, anyway, at least with compulsive/habituals.
but you must get in the door in order to suceed at changing.  :aok
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Offline PJ_Godzilla

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Re: Freakin poison ivy
« Reply #119 on: June 30, 2011, 08:54:00 PM »
but you must get in the door in order to suceed at changing.  :aok

Absolutely. Usually, though, there's some pain involved in acquiring readiness. You've got a clue here. We should take this to pm.
Some say revenge is a dish best served cold. I say it's usually best served hot, chunky, and foaming. Eventually, you will all die in my vengeance vomit firestorm.