30k b17s still are'nt fun

[AKP]

Not every FSO has the credible force rule, it only appears from time to time. The T+60 rule applies to the mission, not individual squadrons. Sometimes multiple squads make up a mission and even if the credible force rule is in effect,  a mission may also include a delayed strike if a medium sized squad applies ordnance to the target before T+60.

As far as I know... every FSO has the credible force rule in effect.  But you are totally correct about how it works.  Lets say a strike package has 20 pilots in bombers.  You send in 15 timed to hit prior to T+60... and the second wave of 5 can hit at any time after that as long as they dont plan a suicide mission (intentionally planning on not making it back by end of frame).  

This is the rule as quoted from the AH Events FSO Rules Page... located here:  http://ahevents.org/fso-rules.html

- All targets must be attacked within 60 minutes of the start of the frame. They must be attacked with explosive ordinance, (rockets and bombs) by a full squadron. Feints and diversions prior to a larger strike force do not satisfy the requirements of this rule. Simply strafing a target with fighters does not satisfy the requirements of this rule. CIC's are expected to construct their orders in such a way that the main attacks reach their targets by T+60. Administrator CM's may request copies of orders to evaluate the observance of this rule.

By the letter of this rule, as long as the target is hit by the MAIN FORCE first, and not a smaller force first... then the T+60 rule is satisfied.  The creative CiC or squadron commander can use this to his or her advantage when planning a strike mission.  And from what I have seen... this type of attack is becoming more commonplace than it used to... on both sides.

[Krusty]

Bost B-17s flew between 15k and 22k-ish (rough estimation). Some up to 25k yes, but those above this were very rare. The majority of massive bomber missions were LOW alt [EDIT: I use this only as compared to 30K, I don't mean on the deck], where the Germans had alt and position on the bomber stream. They often left the highest bombers because, simply enough, there were lower targets to hit and most of a staggered box formation was lower than the highest corner of the "box"...


You want to curb this in FSO? Make all 4-engine bombers take 100% gas, awlays. Every time. That will solve your alt cap problem. If they want to hit before T+60 they level out sooner. Otherwise they fly at 30K but arrive at T+120, and lose all the points they would get.

[Reschke]

Yep we (VF-17) were stretched out over a pretty good area and all of us were between 27-24k and the bomber formations were scooting along like super dots on speed and were at least another 5-6k above the highest members of our group. We were right up there with a few others.

The fatal flaw the 38's and 47's made was coming down in small numbers. When they dropped out of the escort role to attack us we weren't trying to get to the bombers since it would have been suicide and wouldn't have helped anything other than the Allied kill rate. As a result I never saw more than 4 allied aircraft come down into the fray as a cohesive unit. When they did come down they got jumped by several of us and didn't last that long.

[WxMan]

AKP

The rule you presented only states that the target must be attacked by a full Squadron. No where in the present rules is the size of that squadron defined.  One or two CM's have defined credible force in their objectives as at least a medium sized squad. Most of us assume that this is the case for each event, when in reality until its universally defined or specifically announced; an attacking or defending force can be any size.

[AKP]

AKP

The rule you presented only states that the target must be attacked by a full Squadron. No where in the present rules is the size of that squadron defined.  One or two CM's have defined credible force in their objectives as at least a medium sized squad. Most of us assume that this is the case for each event, when in reality until its universally defined or specifically announced; an attacking or defending force can be any size.

-All targets must be attacked within 60 minutes of the start of the frame. They must be attacked with explosive ordinance, (rockets and bombs) by a full squadron. Feints and diversions prior to a larger strike force do not satisfy the requirements of this rule. Simply strafing a target with fighters does not satisfy the requirements of this rule. CIC's are expected to construct their orders in such a way that the main attacks reach their targets by T+60. Administrator CM's may request copies of orders to evaluate the observance of this rule.

The BOLD portions of that rule are what I was referring to.  It implies (at least in my opinion) that it must be attacked by a credible force by T+60.  In other words, I would think that sending in 3 or 4 bombers to hit a target by T+60, followed by a group of 15 or 20 at T+90 would be a violation... in any scenario.

And you are correct...  the actual size of a "credible force" is not defined in the general rules.  I have only seen it in specific scenarios.

This section of the rules probably does need clarification and an update though.  

[Krusty]

The word of the rule (if sufficiently laid out already and not overly vague) only needs clarification when the spirit of it is broken. If you have to start thinking dishonest thoughts to sneak around and avoid combat, chances are you are breaking the spirit of the rules.

If you're searching for loopholes, or ways to "game the game" or milk your score or some such method, you are breaking the spirit of the rules. If that happens you should go back and ask yourself what you want out of FSO, because to steal a phrase, "You're doing it wrong."

[AKP]

Krusty,

I think as long as the intent of the credible force rule is followed, no one is trying to "game the game"... or perhaps I should say... I havent seen anyone trying to do that.  I have seen, and been a part of several "dual wave" missions, and the planners (including myself) are always careful to make sure we hit the target with the majority of our forces by T+60, and in most cases much sooner.  A second, and much smaller wave coming in a few minutes later just seems prudent...  to ensure all of the targets we are assigned are taken down... or at least an attempt to ensure that.

In many cases... the primary wave gets jumped and butchered... as it so happened to us in Frame 1.  We had a second "wave" of 2 bomber formations and 2 escort fighters following about 5 minutes behind the primary wave of 8 formations and a full squadron of escorts.  Even the second wave only made it home with half its forces, and the primary got ripped apart before reaching the target... leaving most of its objectives untouched.  

From a defense standpoint... our squad now assumes that every strike mission we defend against is going to have a second, or follow up wave hit shortly after the first strike, and most likely from a different direction.  Sometimes they come in high... sometimes NOE.  I dont see that as breaking the spirit of the rules at all... rather I see it as a CiC or CO making the most of the resources at his disposal.

Unfortunately, I am sure there are those that would see the omission of the "credible force" statement in the general rules, as a loophole.  And as such, it should be closed by defining it more clearly and completely... and making sure everyone knows it applies to ALL FSO scenarios and frames.

EDIT: However I think that this is probably a discussion for another thread.  The OP intent I believe was to argue the point of B-17's outperforming the Axis aircraft at 30,000ft... giving them little or no chance at engaging them.

[Krusty]

I have personally seen and brought to the forums attempts to game the game and avoid all fight for as much points gain as possible. So I know it exists, and hence why I brought it up. Often those doing it have many vocal defenders.

You are right the main point was 30K buffs, but it was tied into a discussion about the rules so I digressed.

[AKP]

I have personally seen and brought to the forums attempts to game the game and avoid all fight for as much points gain as possible. So I know it exists, and hence why I brought it up. Often those doing it have many vocal defenders.

You are right the main point was 30K buffs, but it was tied into a discussion about the rules so I digressed.

We all digressed

[oakranger]

oakranger,

I believe in the BoB the buffs were limited to 24k and the fighters were limited to 30k.

 
BigRat 

You,sir, are correct.  My mistake.

[FiLtH]

Third frame my opinion of the 30k buffs hasnt changed.

[branch37]

Third frame my opinion of the 30k buffs hasnt changed.

Something needs to be done to limit the heavy bombers to a certian altitude when the Axis have nothing that has any hope at all of even engaging them.  Either an ALT cap, wind, clouds, something. 

[FiLtH]

ALt cap is the easiest and less hassle for both sides. Few like chasing 30k buffs and I hate it when in buffs and the manual bombsight and wind is engaged.

[noTch]

the manual bombsight and wind is engaged.

Maybe that is your alt cap right there.  Engage an EASY-zone and a HARD-zone.  If you go above 20K the Jet stream engages and at every 2000 feet you go above it the wind blows at an unbelievable speed and variance.  It is a little more work for the setup CM's but it is one solution to having an alt cap.  Gotta make sure the sides are warned though

Anyway, while a very viable tactic to take bombers to 30K, I think next time it happens to the Axis(just like this 3rd frame) we will probably still do our best to get our sorry, underpowered, cruddy pigs up there and try to stop them. 

 Like I said this time,,,,Sometimes the Matador wins, Sometimes the Bull, HE wins

[toadkill]

Third frame my opinion of the 30k buffs hasnt changed.

This frame you happened to be attacking (And shot down by Claim Jumpers B17s). We were never (Other than one rogue player during a hard turn back onto target) higher than 23k. You may have went on to later see other bombers, but this is the alt that you attacked B17s, with our P47 and P38 escorts.


I DO agree 30k 17s in an early war environment is the crapper for Axis, as their rides really suck at that alt. But I do want to point out that exaggeration doesn't help.