Author Topic: Chevy finally stepping up to the plate  (Read 3006 times)

Offline CAP1

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Re: Chevy finally stepping up to the plate
« Reply #45 on: December 20, 2011, 10:32:44 AM »
corvette vs mustang.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kVttiigJtxY&feature=related


 and car and driver lapping vir in just over 3 minutes.......which is pretty dam good for a car with a "whacking great girder" for rear suspension. also take note that the g-meter hits 1.14 a couple of times.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsDKVJa6aYM
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Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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Re: Chevy finally stepping up to the plate
« Reply #46 on: December 20, 2011, 10:46:10 AM »
The Camaro was faster and had more HP than the Mustang from 1967 to 1970. The 67 SS 350 Camaro out ran any small block Mustang built to that year. Ford attempted a response with the 390, and the 396/375 stomped it without mercy, then did the same for the various 428 versions. The 67 302 Chevy in the Z-28 trounced Ford's 302 powered Mustangs from 1967 thru 1969, including Dave and Ben Wentzel's win in Stock Eliminator at the U.S. Nationals in their 67 Z-28, which won again over 40 years later, while still owned and driven by the Wentzel's. Ford eventually stepped up with the "Boss" 302, which made something of a decent race engine, provided it lived a while. In 1969, Chevrolet introduced two 427 Camaros, COPO 9560 and COPO 9561, the legendary 427-425HP iron block, and the awe inspiring 427-430HP ZL-1. Those two cars soundly thrashed anything Ford ever put in a Mustang, up to and including the Boss 429.

Finally, 40 years later, in order to break the stranglehold of the Camaro in the muscle car world, Ford paid NHRA a large fee, and gave them a fleet of support vehicles, in exchange for which, NHRA fundamentally changed the rules of Stock Eliminator. In the past, it was a requirement that 50 cars be built on the production line, and sold to the general public for street use with Federal certification allowing them to be sold, licensed, registered, and insured for street use. That rule was changed in 2008 in order to allow Ford to race the Cobra Jet series of Mustangs. These are not factory built cars, they are not legal for street use.

So, Ford now had "factory race cars" which were actually assembled off site. Some are even "paper cars", cars and engines which have never actually been produced or built by Ford or any company that contracts for Ford.

Interesting that all the talk about "no replacement for displacement" is bandied about. Especially since NHRA has allowed Ford to enter both 352 and 428 Windsor based stoker engines which Ford does not now and never has produced at all in Stock Eliminator. These are engines which never existed at all, never mind actually being installed in a Ford Mustang produced by Ford or a Ford sub contractor. You cannot even open the "Ford Motorsports" catalog and find such an engine, it does not even exist on paper in the catalog. Ford has not produced a Windsor engine in a Mustang in a long time.

It took Ford 40 years to "catch" the Camaro in the muscle car wars, they have never eclipsed the 302 Z-28, the 350 LT-1, the 396-375, the L-72 427-425, nor the ZL-1 427-430 with any sort of comparable factory produced Mustang and engine. Never. To this day, the 67-72 Camaro holds more records, and has more wins in class eliminations, more LODRS event wins, more National Event wins, and more championships in Stock and Super Stock than all Mustangs from 64-1/2 to date. All of this was done with production Camaros, built right on the factory assembly line, with parts anyone could buy, Camaros sold to the general public and certified legal for street use in both safety and emissions. No custom built paper race cars were required in order for the Camaro to completely dominated the muscle car wars. Ford cannot say the same.

It is also interesting to note that Ford steadfastly refuses to forward NHRA any specifications for ANY production Mustang. No street legal 2008 or newer Mustang is certified for NHRA Stock or Super Stock competition by Ford, as they fear it will not be competitive. Any 2008 or newer Mustang that is raced in NHRA Stock or Super Stock must be a "paper race car" that was never actually produced by Ford and sold to the general public for street use.

Yes, one company and their "pony car" has been playing "catch up" for around 44 years. But it ain't Chevrolet and it ain't the Camaro.
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Offline Skuzzy

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Re: Chevy finally stepping up to the plate
« Reply #47 on: December 20, 2011, 10:58:14 AM »
CAP1, as much as I like Ford, Virgil hits most of the low points Ford had against the Camaro.  There are a couple of nits in there, but nothing major.  It was a bit more back and forth than Virgil has stated, but not enough off the mark to fuss about.
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Offline Shuffler

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Re: Chevy finally stepping up to the plate
« Reply #48 on: December 20, 2011, 10:58:26 AM »
I'd say its about time ford stepped up to the plate. When the camaro came out in 2009 the v6 model had 300hp the 2009 mustang gt had 300hp.  :banana:

The 2010 V6 Camaro has about 2 less HP than the same year mustang GT.
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Offline CAP1

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Re: Chevy finally stepping up to the plate
« Reply #49 on: December 20, 2011, 11:13:36 AM »
if you do a search through these forums, you'll find the link to 1/4 mile times back nito the 60's. there's almost always been a faster mustang than camaro.

 and yes, with the exception of the rollcage, the cobrajet is indeed a factory built race car. i forget who welds thwe cage in, but it is then returned to the auto alliance plant and hand built.

 did ford also pay off grand am to allow them to beat chevy there too?

 ford easily took the trans am back with the boss302 in 1970, after chevy had it for only 2 years, after which they backed out of racing for awhile.
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Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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Re: Chevy finally stepping up to the plate
« Reply #50 on: December 20, 2011, 11:27:16 AM »
Well, Ford replied to the 1967 Camaro SS, which was equipped with the 295/350, with the 390 FE engine in the Mustang. For a brief period maybe, the 390 Mustang held some advantage, although the FE has a ton of problems. Chevy replied with the 396-375. It was a 4 speed only combination in 1967 and most of 1968. But even the 428 Super Cobra Jet could not beat the 396-375, which was soon equipped with the L-89 aluminum cylinder head option, that helped with traction. The 396 engines, for a period of time experience some small amount of main bearing problems. Those were inconsequential when compared to the number of connecting rods which were exiting the Ford FE engines.

The advent of the 427 engines in the Camaro in 1969 meant the end for any sort of Mustang win in the big block wars. Some 1200 of the L-72 427-425 all iron big blocks were produced, the engine had been in Corvettes and Impalas since 1966-67, and was put in Camaros and Chevelles in 1969. It was a rock solid engine that Ford was constantly struggling to compete with. Although Ford had a 427 FE, in varying forms, it was never a factory Mustang engine, and again, suffered from the normal FE problems of connecting rod and valvetrain life, as well as introducing a new problem, cylinder wall failure. The other Chevy 427, the ZL-1, was an all aluminum version of the vaunted L-88 engine from the 1967 Corvette. It also featured a bigger carburetor, higher compression, and a camshaft with more duration and lift. Only 69 ZL-1 Camaros were produced, but not even the Boss 429, introduced years later, was any real competition.

In 1967, in order to race the Trans Am series, Vince Piggins put a 283 in a 327 block, something hot rodders had in effect been doing for years by boring a 283 0125" over, and created the 302 Z-28 engine. The Chevy 302 was "the little engine that could", and easily out ran the Ford Windsor 289, which was in fact designed long after the small block Chevy, and even beat the Windsor based 302 handily. That Chevy 302 was the basis of the Z-28 option. In 1967, brothers Dave and Ben Wentzel took their 1967 Z-28 to the U.S. Nationals in Indy, the largest drag race in the world. At the time, you had to win your class over the weekend in order to even compete in the final eliminations. The Wentzel brothers did just that, putting their Camaro in the winner's circle. The Z-28 was equally successful in the Trans Am series it was built for.

Chevrolet also produced a widely varied series of 327 and 350 small blocks, from the mild 275/327, up to the strongest small block Chevy, the 370/350 LT-1, which actually produced more torque than the old 375/327 fuel injected Corvette engine. Oddly enough, the only real performance 327 not sold in the Camaro was the L-79 350/327, which was actually removed from the Chevy II line for 1967, to prevent it from stealing any "thunder" from the new for 1967 350 engines. The 66 Chevy II 350/327 had actually been beating up on the vaunted Hemi Belvedere the year before.

The dominance of the Camaro in both Stock and Super Stock is actually what led to the eventual creation of the Pro Stock series. The first Pro Stock races were actually match races featuring Chevrolet legend Bill "Grumpy" Jenkins in his line of 1st generation Camaros carrying the "Grumpy's Toy" moniker.
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Offline Skuzzy

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Re: Chevy finally stepping up to the plate
« Reply #51 on: December 20, 2011, 11:31:27 AM »
CAP, I was racing my Mustang (289) in those days.  Always hated it when a Camaro pulled up next to me.  Fortunately, it would take a while for the Chevy folks to realize they had to pin the inserts when running high pressure oil pumps or the engines would spin them.

Won a number of races due to spun inserts in the Chevy small block.

Back in those days, Ford had nothing in the big block arena to compete against Chevy and really had nothing in the large small block either.

My Uncle and I had a 69 390 Mustang we raced and it kicked butt for four seasons.  Never had a problem with it.  It could pull the front end of the Mustang a couple of feet.  My Dad also raced a 390 in his Falcon.  Scary fast as it was lighter than the Mustang.  Never had any issues withit either.

It really went back and forth, if you look at the timeline of what came out and when.  Neither company held a firm lead for a very long period of time, at least in the 60's.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2011, 11:37:03 AM by Skuzzy »
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Offline CAP1

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Re: Chevy finally stepping up to the plate
« Reply #52 on: December 20, 2011, 11:34:20 AM »
 the camaro didn't win the trans am championship till 68. it repeated in 69, and ford took it back in 70.
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Offline CAP1

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Re: Chevy finally stepping up to the plate
« Reply #53 on: December 20, 2011, 11:45:06 AM »
CAP, I was racing my Mustang in those days.  Always hated it when a Camaro pulled up next to me.  Fortunately, it would take a while for the Chevy folks to realize they had to pin the inserts when running high pressure oil pumps or the engines would spin them.

Won a number of races due to spun inserts in the Chevy small block.

Back in those days, Ford had nothing in the big block arena to compete against Chevy and really had nothing in the large small block either.

It really went back and forth, if you look at the timeline of what came out and when.  Neither company held a firm lead for a very long period of time, at least in the 60's.

 i wasn/'t old enough to be racing when they were new, so i can only go on what i hear from friends(most of my friends are much older then i am), and what i read about those vehicles.
 when i used to run my 67 mustang, i lost a lot to pretty much everything, as it was a stock 289 2v with a 2.78 rear. when i ran my 83 5 liter, as slow as it was stock, there were 3 types of cars at the track on street nights.....mustangs camaros, and grand nationals.
 stock to stock, i never worried about the camaros. never lost to one, unless i blew a shift. the grand nationals, i learned to keep an eye on. if the driver knew enough to cool it down between rounds, i knew i'd be losing that run. those things were quick.
 with my 89gt, same thing....stock to stock, never lost to a camaro of its generation. modification for modification the same held true for both the 83 and 89.

 i had driven a 69 camaro with the 302 virg mentions. i friggin love that engine. if i had the chance, and could afford it, i'd buy one of those in a heartbeat.

 going away from the mustang/camaro.......most of my friends have always been big block people. not a single one of em ever had problems with their fe blocks. unless you count breaking transmissions and blowing chunks out the back of 9" rears. 390's 427's were their favorites. daves 58 fairlane with the 390 was the quickest i think, running 10's in street trim.

 as for your last statement? that was true, and i think still is. i put these up "busting nuts". some people tend to take them a little too seriously though.  :devil

 the difference with me, is that it doesn't matter what it says on the valve cover.....if i like it, i'm gonna buy it. i've had fords, chevys, dodges, plymouths, and some japanese junk.
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Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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Re: Chevy finally stepping up to the plate
« Reply #54 on: December 20, 2011, 11:46:27 AM »
if you do a search through these forums, you'll find the link to 1/4 mile times back nito the 60's. there's almost always been a faster mustang than camaro.

 and yes, with the exception of the rollcage, the cobrajet is indeed a factory built race car. i forget who welds thwe cage in, but it is then returned to the auto alliance plant and hand built.

 did ford also pay off grand am to allow them to beat chevy there too?

 ford easily took the trans am back with the boss302 in 1970, after chevy had it for only 2 years, after which they backed out of racing for awhile.

Sure, you'll find magazine tests with Mustangs claiming low ET's. That sort of thing was common. The fact remains, Chevrolet and the Camaro were dominant in the win column, when it came down to winning races where all conditions were the same, and you actually had to pass a tear down check for adherence to factory specifications. The Camaro was dominant, on the track and on the street, plain and simple.

The Cobra Jet is a completely bogus car. The whole thing was done outside the Ford factory, as much by Roush as anyone. The fact remains, in order to unseat 40 year old Camaros, Ford had to not only buy new rules for the class, they had to have someone else build them a car. To out run an old cast iron 427 big block with a cam in the block and a 780 vacuum secondary Holley 4 barrel, Ford had to put a blower made for a 7.0 liter engine on an all aluminum 4.6 liter engine with over head cams and EFI. It also took them 40 years to do it. Hardly a case of Chevy and the Camaro chasing Ford and the Mustang.

I've actually had my hands on a Ford Cobra Jet Mustang race car. Ford for all intents and purposes pays for what amounts to outside special labor. Guys paid $60K to $80K for a car that needed another $10K worth of work just to get down the track. Having seen the Ford program first hand and up close, it is really sort of laughable. Sure, they can outrun the two ancient archaic 69 Camaros we race in Stock and Super Stock. Considering what Ford spent, what they charge, and what it costs to finish the bogus paper cars, they're good for a laugh.

Chevrolet came in and cleaned up in Trans Am, proving what they set out to prove. In order to get something to compete with the 302 in the Z-28, Ford had to cross breed the 302 Windsor with the 351 Cleveland. The result was an engine that was expensive, and a nightmare to maintain and drive. Chevrolet had the 302 that remained unchanged from its original configuration from 1967, it was cheap, reliable, easy to maintain, and easy to drive. It was just as good on the street as it was on the race track. And really, once again, Chevrolet had the Z-28 in 1967, it took Ford until 1970 to create their cross bred Boss 302 to catch the 67 302 Z-28. That's 3 years. Catch up, indeed.

I don't pay too much attention to Grand Am. It is interesting to note, however, that Roush and Ford struggled for years to buy IMSA and SCCA success, and eventually Roush took his whining and exorbitant budget elsewhere in search of a series where they could buy and whine their way to dominance.
"I haven't seen Berlin yet, from the ground or the air, and I plan on doing both, BEFORE the war is over."

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Offline CAP1

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Offline 321BAR

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Re: Chevy finally stepping up to the plate
« Reply #56 on: December 20, 2011, 01:40:09 PM »
well... im out of this conversation... carry on gentlemen... :joystick:
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Offline CAP1

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Re: Chevy finally stepping up to the plate
« Reply #57 on: December 20, 2011, 01:59:15 PM »
The 2010 V6 Camaro has about 2 less HP than the same year mustang GT.

 how about now?
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Offline Reaper90

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Re: Chevy finally stepping up to the plate
« Reply #58 on: December 20, 2011, 02:22:28 PM »
I don't pay too much attention to Junior Varsity Racing.

Fixed that for ya.  :D

When Ford shows back up in the Big Leagues and runs an ALMS GT car against something other than small privateer teams, I'll be impressed.  :aok

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Offline CAP1

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Re: Chevy finally stepping up to the plate
« Reply #59 on: December 20, 2011, 02:28:20 PM »
Fixed that for ya.  :D

When Ford shows back up in the Big Leagues and runs an ALMS GT car against something other than small privateer teams, I'll be impressed.  :aok



 chevy audi and bmw are small?
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